TELETOON
Exactly. Even in TDI, Courtney had her moments of weakness. She faultered as the team leader, she got pelted with apples, she got eliminated in a few challenges... She's only better in TDA because of being the antagonist. But since a lot of the fans are so crazy about Courtney (for the life of me, I can't understand why) this prompts the writers to go overboard, way overboard.
Hopefully Duncan will get his moment to hit Courtney where it hurts. Not the other way around.
imverybasic wrote: |
Exactly. Even in TDI, Courtney had her moments of weakness. She faultered as the team leader, she got pelted with apples, she got eliminated in a few challenges... She's only better in TDA because of being the antagonist. But since a lot of the fans are so crazy about Courtney (for the life of me, I can't understand why) this prompts the writers to go overboard, way overboard. Hopefully Duncan will get his moment to hit Courtney where it hurts. Not the other way around. |
alagaesian wrote: |
I see. In order to convince the legions of Courtney fanatics of her new villainous status, they need to make her unceasingly annoying and twice as nasty as Heather. Still, I'm desperately hoping that her rampage does not make Harold a helpless casualty like Justin. Not only is Harold one of my only favorites left in the game, but the only other protagonists are Lindsay (who we're pretty sure won't win) and Beth. If Beth is the only protagonist left, then she MUST win. This takes all the suspense out of the show. Plus, leaving Harold in the show allows for some more Duncan-based drama, which is pretty much the only drama that can happen in this show that isn't directly caused by Courtney's Mary-Sue-ness. I know that Harold will probably get eliminated eventually, I just don't want it to be meaningless. I want it to be dramatic. I want him to go down in a blaze of fireworks. At least Justin adhered to that desire of mine - he caused quite a bit of drama in his episode of elimination. If Courtney's Mary-Sue-ness basically eliminates him, then it won't quite work out this way. Sure, he might throw off some sparks in his final episode, but it means three eliminations (Justin, Lindsay, Harold) where someone is kicked off in the exact same way: Courtney strategizes, wins immunity again, and gets Duncan to work with her to eliminate the largest threat or least-worthy competitor. It may be fireworks, but it's the exact same fireworks display three times in a row. The repetitiveness leads to boredom, no matter how bright, loud, or colorful the explosions are. |
Hmm... that's interesting. I don't mind if Harold gets eliminated, or not. This is because that at least we know that Courtney has no chance of winning. On the other hand, I don't want Courtney's Mary-Sueness to be the causation/result of his elimination. I want his elimination to go as fair and just as it can possibly go, so it won't give Courtney fans anymore reason to think that she is the more superior player (by the way, this is not a shot at anyone). To be honest, I've grown tired of Courtney's constant immunities. It's that very thing that is making this season lose a little bit of it's magic. That and the players that are left in the game. I have nothing against Lindsay or Beth. Just that even though they have had more screentime and character development, they still don't have as much to offer as last season's finalists. At least when the season was nearing to the end, the writers kept the Gwen/Heather drama going. TDA has become way too predictable in terms of character development. They're basically switching everything around and making Courtney way too perfect. Even though Heather always had her way, the writers had ways of balancing it out ( the red ant farm fiasco, sewage shower, and the drastic buzz cut). You wouldn't know what to expect, but with Courtney, it's a completely different story.
Do you people even know what a Mary Sue is? Those are self-insert characters created for wish fulfillment. That's not what Courtney is; she's an established canon character.
You're thinking more along the lines of Courtney being an unstoppable super bad-ass. She's pretty, popular, and can do practically everything she wants.
One concern I must address is people somehow thinking Courtney was worse than Heather. False, by all stretches. Courtney has been shown to be ruthless, cunning, and skilled. Further, she's willing to use people to her own advantages. However, there is something Heather does that she didn't, and it is that which made Heather villainous. Heather humiliated and destroyed people for reasons completely unrelated to the ultimate goal of winning the prize. She read Gwen's diary aloud (before she thought Trent would win, so the purpose was only to humiliate Gwen), she kissed Trent. These are the things we remember about Heather being so cruel. To date, Courtney has only played the game; she doesn't use people just to humiliate them.
Look at everything Courtney has done: Everything was done to win the prize; the goal of being on this show in the first place.
Another thing I must address is Harold as protagonist. How, exactly, is the dork a protagonist? It's funny how when he cheats, everyone rubs up to the little woobie, but when Courtney plays hardball (and still follows the rules), she's irredemable. Looks like self-inserts aren't on Harold's part.
Oh, and Heather wasn't "bad" at challenges, she did very well on quite a number of them. I'll agree that Courtney, even in TDI, did better than Heather, but Heather wasn't as bad as Noah or Izzy.
BrainMan820 wrote: |
Do you people even know what a Mary Sue is? Those are self-insert characters created for wish fulfillment. That's not what Courtney is; she's an established canon character. |
BrainMan820 wrote: |
Heather humiliated and destroyed people for reasons completely unrelated to the ultimate goal of winning the prize. She read Gwen's diary aloud (before she thought Trent would win, so the purpose was only to humiliate Gwen), she kissed Trent. These are the things we remember about Heather being so cruel. To date, Courtney has only played the game; she doesn't use people just to humiliate them. |
BrainMan820 wrote: |
How, exactly, is the dork a protagonist? It's funny how when he cheats, everyone rubs up to the little woobie, but when Courtney plays hardball (and still follows the rules), she's irredemable. |
BrainMan820 wrote: |
but Heather wasn't as bad as Noah or Izzy. |
I find Harold to be a "good guy" because he is a target of Duncan, who has done some pretty bad stuff to him. Courtney may not have done as much to Harold, but she's done some. Harold has cheated, yes, but only because he was pushed by another person so far as into doing it. Was it wrong for him to do it? Yes. But it was also wrong for Duncan to pick on him so much.
I like Duncan, but he is obviously a "bad guy" in the show.
Personally, I really hope Courtney isn't in the final two. It would be obvious that the other person, most likely Beth or Harold, would win. That's why I hope Harold and Beth are the final two. Then it would'nt be as obvious as to who wins.
While Sam is indeed an overpowered character, given far too many praiseworthy talents, never punished for her actions, has an innate superiority complex, that doesn't mean she's a Mary Sue. I'm not exactly sure what the trope is called, but Mary Sue's are created by fan characters as a self-insert or to pair up with a character. No canon character can be a Mary Sue.
I will agree, however, that Courtney is that trope, along with Sam, Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender, Lana Lang, and so on. They're super-powered characters (and these super powered characters, no matter the show, are almost always women)
Heather tried to humiliate Gwen since practically Day 1, and there were plenty of other couples around on that show, take, for example, Geoff and Bridgette. Heather picked those two because she wanted to hurt Gwen.
A "sympathetic" character is not a protagonist merely because they suffer. Protagonists do good for the sake of doing good. Of course, "protagonist" is an improper term for this show, since both "protagonist" and "antagonist" are after the same goal, while antagonists are usually trying to stop the protagonist. "Virtuous" and "Ruthless" would be better terms.
Izzy was bad at challenges because she constantly eliminated herself or cost her team. She was asleep early in the Big Sleep, eliminated a lot in dodgeball, gave away the secret to DJ getting the canoes back, eliminated herself with the poison ivy wrap, and made out in the woods during a horror movie.
No where, basic, have you explained why Courtney is evil. She did not betray Duncan: He served his purpose, as Courtney had the case. Her competitors were not her teammates when the building was about to explode: Everyone was own their own. Further, Justin never discussed an alliance with Courtney; he wanted her to be his girlfriend. Courtney was not interested in that. How, exactly, does Heather being crueller than Courtney make Courtney evil?
BrainMan820 wrote: |
While Sam is indeed an overpowered character, given far too many praiseworthy talents, never punished for her actions, has an innate superiority complex,
I will agree, however, that Courtney is that trope, along with Sam, Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender, Lana Lang, and so on. They're super-powered characters (and these super powered characters, no matter the show, are almost always women) |
Well, at least we agee on something. The only thing that stops those characters from BEING Sues is semantics.
BrainMan820 wrote: |
"Virtuous" and "Ruthless" would be better terms. |
So which label applies to which character, then?
About Gwen and Trent... the reason Heather targeted her was probably because Gwen was the closest thing the first season had to the actual definition of a protagonist. Besides, Gwen wasn't the only person Heather hated, just the one she did the most bad things to. Heather also had equally huge conflicts with Beth and Lindsay, and her hatred of Leshawna was probably worse.
BrainMan820 wrote: |
No where, basic, have you explained why Courtney is evil. She did not betray Duncan: He served his purpose, as Courtney had the case. Her competitors were not her teammates when the building was about to explode: Everyone was own their own. Further, Justin never discussed an alliance with Courtney; he wanted her to be his girlfriend. Courtney was not interested in that. How, exactly, does Heather being crueller than Courtney make Courtney evil? |
Duncan did not perform those actions just for the sake of serving his purpose to Courtney. Duncan and Courtney teamed up. Yes, winning one million dollars is a very big opportunity, sometimes a once in a lifetime chance to change your life. But Courtney and Duncan could have easily split the money. Yes, Courtney would have a bit of a shortage, but things would have worked out for the better. The fact that Courtney would desert her boyfriend for a case of a million dollars is very selfish. Disregard my second point: the teams have already merged. Even though everybody was on their own, Courtney was willing to bargain with their lives. She said she wouldn't save them unless she would have some of the prize money. This is not only selfish, this is blackmail. In other words, she would leave them to die if she didn't get what she wanted. This is considered cruel and evil. She may have won the tools, but the least she could have down was to help the others first, talk about a deal after. If Justin wanted to be Courtney to be his girlfirend, all she could have done was say "no" or try to avoid the offer. Instead, she messed around his emotions and Duncan's to get herself the win. That wasn't neccessary. Duncan offered Heather to be in an alliance for the animal hunt. She declined at first, but then joined. She never once double-crossed him after that. I never denied Heather being mean and nasty, cruel at most. But those things that she did weren't just out of plain malice. Gwen's suffering was just icing on the cake for her. Her main goal was just to seek out any visible weaknesses in her competitors. Seeing as Gwen was one of her biggest threats, Heather pegged her. Justin was not at all a threat to the competition. He wanted nothing more than to be with Courtney and Courtney played that against him. Not only that, Courtney was pretty nasty towards everyone else. She threatens Beth for touching her PDA, she insults Lindsay, she tried to cheat Leshawna out a million dollars and persuaded Harold to vote her off (with aid from Duncan)... These things are all similar to what Heather has done in the past. Plus Courtney is still going out of her way to make Duncan suffer. She hit him in the groin, she tries to make him jealous, she left him behind in TDDDDI. The fact that she would try to bring pain to the person she cares for most is considered cruel.
imverybasic wrote: | ||
Duncan did not perform those actions just for the sake of serving his purpose to Courtney. Duncan and Courtney teamed up. Yes, winning one million dollars is a very big opportunity, sometimes a once in a lifetime chance to change your life. But Courtney and Duncan could have easily split the money. Yes, Courtney would have a bit of a shortage, but things would have worked out for the better. The fact that Courtney would desert her boyfriend for a case of a million dollars is very selfish. Disregard my second point: the teams have already merged. Even though everybody was on their own, Courtney was willing to bargain with their lives. She said she wouldn't save them unless she would have some of the prize money. This is not only selfish, this is blackmail. In other words, she would leave them to die if she didn't get what she wanted. This is considered cruel and evil. She may have won the tools, but the least she could have down was to help the others first, talk about a deal after. If Justin wanted to be Courtney to be his girlfirend, all she could have done was say "no" or try to avoid the offer. Instead, she messed around his emotions and Duncan's to get herself the win. That wasn't neccessary. Duncan offered Heather to be in an alliance for the animal hunt. She declined at first, but then joined. She never once double-crossed him after that. I never denied Heather being mean and nasty, cruel at most. But those things that she did weren't just out of plain malice. Gwen's suffering was just icing on the cake for her. Her main goal was just to seek out any visible weaknesses in her competitors. Seeing as Gwen was one of her biggest threats, Heather pegged her. Justin was not at all a threat to the competition. He wanted nothing more than to be with Courtney and Courtney played that against him. Not only that, Courtney was pretty nasty towards everyone else. She threatens Beth for touching her PDA, she insults Lindsay, she tried to cheat Leshawna out a million dollars and persuaded Harold to vote her off (with aid from Duncan)... These things are all similar to what Heather has done in the past. Plus Courtney is still going out of her way to make Duncan suffer. She hit him in the groin, she tries to make him jealous, she left him behind in TDDDDI. The fact that she would try to bring pain to the person she cares for most is considered cruel. |
Courtney and Duncan never agreed to split the million; don't assume as if that was their initial plan.
Further, Courtney never believed Chris was going to blow up the building. She wasn't bargaining with their lives; she didn't believe it was necessary. She was merely using their beliefs to turn a profit. That is not wrong.
In regards to Justin, recall that this is a game, and they are down to the wire. Courtney needs to pull out every stop in order to win,otherwise, she'll lose.There's nothing wrong with that. She also never messed with Duncan's emotions; Duncan got worked up on his own, and Courtney wasn't around to explain anything.
How can you state Justin wasn't a threat to the competition? He was a major player in the Guy's alliance, and recall that he was able to sway Lindsay and Beth to his side. Destroying him then, in his moment of weakness, was a smart move.
Beth constantly takes Courtney's PDA; that's theft. Courtney has a right to be angry with Beth for doing that. Further, Lindsay was never kind to Courtney, and Lindsay started it with her rudeness in Playa de Losers. Why exactly should Courtney be kind if Lindsay just whines that she's too bossy?
Leshawna was also unbelievably mean to her, which is odd considering how they got along in TDI. If you look back, Leshawna was the one who threw out all the insults first. Persuading Harold to vote her off is strategy, not cruelty.
As for Duncan, we've been over that. It was all strategy, hitting him in the groin was the best way to utilize her weapon given her proximity, she never tried to make him jealous, she just manipulated Justin.
shishkabob999 wrote: | ||||
Well, at least we agee on something. The only thing that stops those characters from BEING Sues is semantics.
So which label applies to which character, then? About Gwen and Trent... the reason Heather targeted her was probably because Gwen was the closest thing the first season had to the actual definition of a protagonist. Besides, Gwen wasn't the only person Heather hated, just the one she did the most bad things to. Heather also had equally huge conflicts with Beth and Lindsay, and her hatred of Leshawna was probably worse. |
Courtney's definitely ruthless, but that's not a bad thing. So is Duncan, Harold, Justin, they're just at lesser degrees than Courtney is. She takes it to it's given conclusion. I don't think there is any "virtuous" player left in the game. I'm not sure there was even one to begin with. Maybe Trent.
BrainMan820 wrote: | ||||||
Courtney's definitely ruthless, but that's not a bad thing. So is Duncan, Harold, Justin, they're just at lesser degrees than Courtney is. She takes it to it's given conclusion. I don't think there is any "virtuous" player left in the game. I'm not sure there was even one to begin with. Maybe Trent. |
Other than when he cheated off Courtney, when has Harold been ruthless?
He's not the perfect protagonist, rarely any are. But he's also not an antagonist, not is he an anti-hero. He's a protagonist. Not matter what you say.
BrainMan820 wrote: |
Courtney and Duncan never agreed to split the million; don't assume as if that was their initial plan. Further, Courtney never believed Chris was going to blow up the building. She wasn't bargaining with their lives; she didn't believe it was necessary. She was merely using their beliefs to turn a profit. That is not wrong. In regards to Justin, recall that this is a game, and they are down to the wire. Courtney needs to pull out every stop in order to win,otherwise, she'll lose.There's nothing wrong with that. She also never messed with Duncan's emotions; Duncan got worked up on his own, and Courtney wasn't around to explain anything. How can you state Justin wasn't a threat to the competition? He was a major player in the Guy's alliance, and recall that he was able to sway Lindsay and Beth to his side. Destroying him then, in his moment of weakness, was a smart move. Beth constantly takes Courtney's PDA; that's theft. Courtney has a right to be angry with Beth for doing that. Further, Lindsay was never kind to Courtney, and Lindsay started it with her rudeness in Playa de Losers. Why exactly should Courtney be kind if Lindsay just whines that she's too bossy? Leshawna was also unbelievably mean to her, which is odd considering how they got along in TDI. If you look back, Leshawna was the one who threw out all the insults first. Persuading Harold to vote her off is strategy, not cruelty. As for Duncan, we've been over that. It was all strategy, hitting him in the groin was the best way to utilize her weapon given her proximity, she never tried to make him jealous, she just manipulated Justin. |
I never said that Duncan and Courtney agreed to split the money. I said that they should have agreed to split it.
Courtney didn't believe Chris until after the countdown started. She said that she was willing to rescue them only for the money. Whether she believed it or not is irrelevant as in, she had no right to keep them stranded. This is wrong. Mainly because she was trying to trick them into giving her the money, if they won it fairly. That's not right. Chris even took a moment to explain why he chose Courtney for the competition. He said that she was nasty.
Courtney was clearly ignoring Duncan and is still constantly trying to make him think that she's over him.
Justin's appearance was all he ever had. And it wasn't long until a few episodes later that Lindsay and Beth became wise to what he was up to. And after that, he was pretty much on his own and couldn't do anything for himself.
What are you talking about? Beth did not steal Courtney's PDA. She meant to give it back to her. Courtney kept dropping it and Beth was kind enough to return it to her. That's not theft. Courtney's just getting worked up over nothing. Lindsay was never mean to Courtney. When she says that she wasn't liked, note the expression and hesitation in her voice when she says it. These two things are key to telling us that she meant nothing by it. She was merely just telling the truth. If you want to fault Lindsay for it, we could say that it wasn't neccessary to point it out, but Courtney pretty much asked for it. Her continuous whining and moping about being eliminated from the competition started to get on everybody's nerves. Most of the other campers, one of them being Noah became fed up with it, he told her that she lost, she was here and she had to get over it.
Leshawna was also never mean to Courtney. Yes, she threw out insults, but nothing that had to do with Courtney. Leshawana and Courtney had no interaction until TDA. Courtney even confessed in Playa De Losers that she had nothing bad to say about her.
Hitting Duncan in the groin was completely unnecessary. Courtney already had the upper hand. She already had Duncan by the wrist and had a bone twice the size of his. There was nothing more to do then to just give him a jab. That would have been enough to knock him into the tar.