Sektos - One of the things that your not counting is the fact that if Zuko didn't have friends (or an uncle) to save him at particular points, Zuko would have died by now, even towards the end of the series, when he was quite blatantly at his peak... I'm not saying Zuko isn't powerful, which is what you seem to think (Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's the way I myself, personally see it), but Azula in my opinion is the more powerful, has more potential, and WAY more intelligence... I probably DID contradict myself, and I'm sorry for that confusion, but can you really, honestly blame me? I can come up with a TON of reasons as to why Azula is better, AND always will be better, and I probably mixed up my arguments, but the thing is, Azula has always been one step ahead of Zuko... Whether it includes using her environment, or just relying on his weak points, she always has more raw intelligence than Zuko does (including when she is insane)... Although, Azula always seems to have the upper hand in intelligence, despite who ever she is fighting. She never seems to have had to try against him either... Can you truly name one point where >Sane< Azula has looked as if she was going to lose against Zuko? Can you? Zuko has given it his all against Azula, but she's done nothing but toy with his useless efforts... It seems that she will always be his superior... While, (If Nickelodeon had there way) the series would probably be ended with Zuko being better, logically and realistically I don't think that would (or ever will) be the case... I'd like to clear a lot of my arguments up... Zuko, WOULD HAVE DIED, in "The Southern Raiders" if Katara hadn't caught his sorry butt, and that was virtually the END of the series... Whether you think Azula and Zuko's bending is completely equal is up to you, I don't even care about that particular argument anymore, as that is simply just a matter of opinion, but Azula's intelligence will always prevail, and will always be stronger than Zuko's, and just about everyone else's as well... As Human Beings, our main weapon will practically ALWAYS be intelligence, that is something that cannot be questioned... While I THINK Azula's bending will always be superior to Zuko's, I KNOW that her intelligence and pure brain power, will always be the superior factor in her comparisons with Zuko... Even when Azula was mentally unstable, physically un-well (By the looks of it) and flat-out insane, she STILL managed to out-smart him, eventually winning the final battle (Technically, she just used her environment to win, if Zuko hadn't been an arrogant idiot it wouldn't have even got to that)... And the difference is, Zuko has about three years TOPS, more experience than Azula, doing what? Ozai and Iroh have COUNTLES DECADES more experience than Azula... SO it depends how long the experience is, and WHO it is that has the superior experience... I said the wrong thing in my Ozai/Iroh/Azula rant... It's not the experience, it's the fact that they are both older and improved versions of her, in terms of ability... In Avatar, experience doesn't count with EVERYTHING... For example, I, Axrendale and Isabelwhatx, all agree that Azula could beat Jeong Jeong, I think Toph could beat Bumi, and Katara DID beat Hama (And could probably beat Pakku)... So experience counts, but in certain battles, and situations in life, it doesn't, namely this battle... And three years isn't really a great deal of an advantage, especially when you haven't been in challenging battle, and you've just been looking (hopelessly) for something... Being on a ship for three years doesn't give him the advantage, and that seems to be your strongest argument... And besides, saying Zuko has more experience, is like me playing the "Azula's superior talent" card... They both have props over each other, but overall, Azula = win = over Zuko... Azula's intelligence AND ability, can rival some of the greatest Firebenders in the world, Zuko (in any category), simply cannot...

And while I'm at it, let's look at Azula's accomplishments... Azula single-handily conquered Ba Sing Se, the most protected city in their whole entire world, and she is a young girl (FOURTEEN years old to be exact)... Even Iroh (At his very best), and probably countless other worthy people, couldn't do that... She also managed to intimidate the Dai Li (The sneakiest, scariest Earthbenders in the world) enough to make them her servants... She is also the only Human Being in Avatar we have seen, that is capable of Blue Fire (And it's easy for her as well), probably the most intense fire that can be practiced within the element... Oh, and she managed to trick, mentally dominate and out-run Aang (The Avatar (Although he could have used super-speed (Airbending))), Toph (The Most Powerful Earthbender in the show and THE Human lie detector), and Sokka (The brains of the operation and an amazing swordsman). I could go on, but that would turn into a rant about Azula's greatness, something that I hope we are all perfectly aware of... She is also an amazing gymnast and acrobat, and is quite obviously very agile and purely athletic, As Axrendale pointed out, she is second only to Ty Lee in agility, gymnastics, acrobatics and flexibility, and that is just one of the many things that she owns in. Zuko could never live up to any of that, he even admitted he would need help facing her... He was only confident and on his high horse, when he knew she was mentally slipping, and even then, she still defeated him, via her superior smarts and strategies... I don't even care if I'm repeating myself, Azula just has Zuko's number, and quite frankly, I don't think that's going to change for a humiliatingly long time...

A sentence struck me from your post ThisCrazyGuy - "If Nickelodeon had had their way, Zuko would have come out on top in the end".

Here, perhaps, was something for which Bryke won my undying respect. Since the finale, it has been revelealed that Nick attempted to pressure Bryke on many, many points in the finale. Bryke held firm on every single one of them. This was their story - they were going to tell it how they wanted to (a few of the fans would do well to remember this as well), and they did just that.

Three cheers for Bryke, and their legendary accomplishment - they have made something on Nick of a caliber that Nickelodeon has never been graced with before

And I can respect what Zuko has gone through emotionally... I really can, but Azula has had to carry the burden of her mother not loving her, her two friends hating and betraying her, and her father (The only person she ever truly trusted) not wanting her in his vision of a amazingly re-born world of perfection... She felt like everyone was out to get her, to punish her and hurt her... She's a strong girl, but she's not god... And Zuko's life only became hard when he was around Fourteen-Fifthteen... Azula has thought her mother hates her since she was an infant... And Azula's lack of shock (and more sadness) towards her hallucination (In the final), tells us that that wasn't the first time, Azula has mentally had serious problems, so I'm guessing she has had to deal with those hallucinations, basically her whole life... Azula has quite obviously only had her father love her... Zuko hasn't got off that bad, he just hasn't realised the love that surrounds him (Iroh, Mai, later on, the gAang)...

To quote from my blog-

"Also the point about Zuko only having dealt with this for 3 years isnt completely true- he has had issues with his father for years and never got accepted by him, instead he got his love from his mother who he then lost. Even if we dont count the probs of these earlier years it atleast adds 2 or 3 years of living only with his A-hole father and munipulative sister. You then top that by being physically assualted and bannished by your own father. To top that off he then was marked a traitor by him and all possibility of going home removed. Zuko however has struggled for years with no one but his Uncle until now. He couldnt even appreciate that till too late due to having been so scared by family."

So Azula supposable being granted greatest trust by her father to watch over the nation, to be Fire Lord; her dream, means she had good reason to start coming unhinged???. He didnt want her to not be part of his dream; he needed someone at home to ensure that nothing happened- he knew the avatar was still alive. The fact she could so easily crack from just having lost her friends recently and then being granted Fire Lord really doesnt show her being mentally stronger that Zuko. She believed her mother didnt love her, but she actually she did- Ozai didnt even love Zuko! He was a disappointment and so he gave everything to Azula. Azula still had her father, whilst Zuko went through three years having lost the parent who loved him and never meeting up to his fathers standards. AND to then be scarred by him horrible, his honor removed and banished, with no "true" hope of redemption (the Avatar-quest was meant to be impossible), and then finally marked a traitor. Wow Azula really suffered in comparison lol.

BUT yeah, Azula had it bad and the person she was influenced by her father, and followed him rather than her mother, and this follows through into FB, but Zuko def had worse. He however stayed above the surface despite everything, whilst Azula started to lose it. And Azula was similar to Zuko with Iroh in S1 in that she couldnt see how much her mother loved her (ZUko's own self-hatred and need to redeem himsef blinded him), hell she must of known alittle for her own hallucination to be able to tell her she did. Ty-Lee didnt hate Azula, and neither did Mai till maybe BR, but Azula forced them into an impossible situation and has been horrible to them in the past.

I have said in the past, whether Ursa loved Azula or not is irrelevant. What matters is that Azula clearly thought Ursa hated her - because that was what did the damage.

It really is hard to say who was worse off relationship wise between Zuko and Azula. Both of those kids had such messed up childhoods and family and friend relationships, it's a wonder that they both didn't end up like Azula (although Zuko definitely came close a couple of times in Season 2).

However, I think that Zuko was slightly better off. Throughout his life, he was always able to depend on somebody - Ursa, Iroh, Mai, etc. Pretty much all Azula had was Ozai - and that was more of a minus than a plus - as far as we can surmise, the guy never really saw her as anything more than a highly useful tool, and this relationship had the downside of encouraging Azula to become just like Ozai, effectively dooming her chances of bonding with anyone else (which is pretty much behind what happened with Mai and Ty Lee). Baially, Ozai and Ty Lee were all that Azula had, and when the latter betrayed her, and the former fobbed her off, she had nothing to hold onto anymore.

I could rant about this for days, but I was just wondering, how did this thread go from discussing whether Zuko is a firebending master or not to discussing Azula's psyche?

I'm not saying Zuko hasn't had it bad, because in truth, he has probably had it the worse (Although Aang's story tops all in pure sadness), but the thing with Azula, is that, whether or not Ursa loved her, Azula will pretty much always think that her mother doesn't love her... She's quite obviously convinced herself that Ursa thinks she is a monster. And notice in the final, where Azula has her first seen hallucination, she doesn't even seem shocked by what had happened, but more sad... Its quite obvious Azula has been mentally unhinged for a while now (I would guess since she was a little girl)... If she wasn't mentally ill, then I could guess that she would be SCARY powerful... Regardless, I still think (And I can guarantee most people would agree with me) Azula owns Zuko as a character (For what it's worth, she probably owns most of the characters based on who she is), because her story isn't too sad like Zuko's, but it's still tear-worthy... And there is the fact that she is simply more badass than ANYONE.