isabelwhatx wrote: |
I'm confused. Why does everyone place Zuko in front of insane Azula? Azula beat him in the Agni Kai. Katara saved Zuko's butt. |
Nickelodeon (ended 2008)
isabelwhatx wrote: |
I'm confused. Why does everyone place Zuko in front of insane Azula? Azula beat him in the Agni Kai. Katara saved Zuko's butt. |
isabelwhatx wrote: |
Azula still won, though. Azula realized Zuko's weakness and shot a direct hit at it. Her resourcefulness helped her win. |
isabelwhatx wrote: |
I guess that makes sense. I still think she won, though. She used her surroundings. Katara shouldn't have been within range. |
Azula did win the Agni Kai - she would only have been disqualified if Katara had actually been hit with the lightning. Therein lies the strength of the moment - Zuko was forced to choose between winning the Agni Kai at the cost of Katara's life, or sacrificing himself to save her. He made the right choice - the epitome of the incredible character changes he has gone through. But yes, Azula had won.
But this thread is not for arguing about who beats who in fights and how. This is a thread for the discussion of which people have the greatest raw power and skill to call upon, and Zuko was beating insane Azula in this catagory during the Agni Kai (before she unexpectedly pwned him).
Of course if Azula had been sane during the fight I remain dead certain that she would have been able to triumph without trickery.
isabelwhatx wrote: |
Oh, I am certain of that as well. But I believe that by Azula using her surroundings like that, aka by trying to hit Katara, she outsmarted Zuko. I count that victory as a major use of scenery and I commend her for that. In my mind, that move was incredibly smart and strategic, and therefore she won the fight. But you're right about the thread as well. In the Fire Nation, Ozai pwns n00bs everywhere. |
Azula's use of tactics like this is another thing that convinces me that she was based off the character of Emperor Shi Huang Di. When it was clear that he could not win his fights through brute strength (his preffered strategy), he did not do what most generals of the time did in such situations and send his army in on an honorable suicide attack. Instead he used trickery; raiding the enemy's supply lines, attacking vulnerable towns and cities and forcing them to stretch their lines out, launching attacks at the rear of enemy armies to catch them off gurad, bribing soldiers to defect to him. It wasn't very honorable by the standards of the day, but since all of his enemies were dead at the end of the fights no one was going to argue with him about it.
Speaking of which, did you end up managing to tape that documentary?
Axrendale wrote: |
Azula did win the Agni Kai - she would only have been disqualified if Katara had actually been hit with the lightning. Therein lies the strength of the moment - Zuko was forced to choose between winning the Agni Kai at the cost of Katara's life, or sacrificing himself to save her. He made the right choice - the epitome of the incredible character changes he has gone through. But yes, Azula had won. But this thread is not for arguing about who beats who in fights and how. This is a thread for the discussion of which people have the greatest raw power and skill to call upon, and Zuko was beating insane Azula in this catagory during the Agni Kai (before she unexpectedly pwned him). Of course if Azula had been sane during the fight I remain dead certain that she would have been able to triumph without trickery. |
Well, you're right about that. Zuko had more raw power than, but Azula was still more cunning. But do you also think that inventing a new bending technique makes you a better bender than the other who have not done that? I realy think not, because as I explained earlier, I know some lethal and non lethal fighting techniques that a friend of mine doesn't. But he is nearly a black belt karate, and I still cant defeat him in a fight. Even not if I use the non lethal techniques an punches and holds and stuff like that, because he just is a better skilled fighter. So in my opinion: being able to use a more powerfull technique doesn't always make you a more powerfull fighter or bender.
And btw, you don't think the most powerfull bender is also the best skilled fighter. (I think that to) Well, who do you think are the most skilled fighter of every bending? Let's discuss that because we just can't agree about the most powerfull.
And about katara freezing more water than Pakku. Pakku froze a giant wave of water he created in the episode into the inferno.
How about that general in "the avatar state". Isn't he a powerfull earthbender?
And is there is difference between most powerfull bender and most skilled bender in combat?
doomed_soul89 wrote: | ||
|
Zuko actually isn't that skilled with his swords.
Yes, he is very skilled, but compared to what a person ACUALLY looks like when really wielding dual daos(I've seen it, more skilled users are much, much faster), he is far from mastering it. He is much, much closer to mastering firebending than he is swordsmanship. Although he is very skilled, the way he blocked attacks in "Zuko Alone" and how easily he let himself get surrounded in "The Blue Spirit" show that he's far from a master.
Even when he fought Jet, it could be argued Jet was holding back, since his only objective was to make Zuko firebend, not physically harm him. I bet in a straight up fight, Jet would beat Zuko in a sword match, because due to his objective, I doubt Jet used his full potential. He just wanted Zuko to firebend, he didn't want to actually do heavy, bodily harm.
-TheSecondSign- wrote: | ||||
Zuko actually isn't that skilled with his swords. Yes, he is very skilled, but compared to what a person ACUALLY looks like when really wielding dual daos(I've seen it, more skilled users are much, much faster), he is far from mastering it. He is much, much closer to mastering firebending than he is swordsmanship. Although he is very skilled, the way he blocked attacks in "Zuko Alone" and how easily he let himself get surrounded in "The Blue Spirit" show that he's far from a master. Even when he fought Jet, it could be argued Jet was holding back, since his only objective was to make Zuko firebend, not physically harm him. I bet in a straight up fight, Jet would beat Zuko in a sword match, because due to his objective, I doubt Jet used his full potential. He just wanted Zuko to firebend, he didn't want to actually do heavy, bodily harm. |
Well, what's your ranking for most powerfull firebenders then? Mine:
1 Ozai
2 Iroh
3 Jeong Jeong
4 Azula
5 Post FBM Zuko
6 Insane Azula
My ranking for most skilled firebenders in a fight:
1 Iroh (I think he better skilled in fighting than Ozai because I think Iroh has better control over his powers)
2 Ozai
3 Jeong Jeong
4 Azula
5 Insane Azula (she knows how to use the weakness of her enemy against him. Like vs Zuko in the final Agni Kai.
6 Post FBM Zuko
-TheSecondSign- wrote: |
AS Aang, normal Aang(Now fully realized, therefore complete, Avatar level firebender), then Ozai, Iroh, Azula, Zuko and Jeong Jeong tied |
Well, I don't know about Aang. He is fully realized now, but does it mean he now has completely masterd all elements? In the Avatar state he pwns all.
And to those who think Jeong Jeong is still weak. He is a legend in the fire nation. Discribed as a firebending genius, firebending master and living legend. He took out a whole army of tanks, all by himself. The power of the tanks was also boosted because of the comet, because there are firebenders inside who shoot the flames. So he wasn't only capable of doing it because of the comet. And he is a wise and skilled master (something Azula and Zuko arn't) and he could fend of Zhao's fleet. He is the only one seen in the series who was able to let flames burn on water, so that caunt's for something He can tell how skilled an opponent is and kinda knows what he's doing without even looking. So he will probably beat Zuko and Azula in a fight.
Axrendale wrote: |
Azula did win the Agni Kai - she would only have been disqualified if Katara had actually been hit with the lightning. Therein lies the strength of the moment - Zuko was forced to choose between winning the Agni Kai at the cost of Katara's life, or sacrificing himself to save her. He made the right choice - the epitome of the incredible character changes he has gone through. But yes, Azula had won. But this thread is not for arguing about who beats who in fights and how. This is a thread for the discussion of which people have the greatest raw power and skill to call upon, and Zuko was beating insane Azula in this catagory during the Agni Kai (before she unexpectedly pwned him). Of course if Azula had been sane during the fight I remain dead certain that she would have been able to triumph without trickery. |
I feel like Azula didnt 100% fully win the Agni Kai. Although she did strike Zuko with lightning- an Agni Kai is an Agni Kai, a one on one with no interruptions. One person is to be defeated while another is to be the victor. I feel like Azula broke out of the Agni Kai when she targeted Katara, she is not part of the Agni Kai, therefore Azula also broke out of the Agni Kai when aiming for Katara.
And before the Agni Kai, Azula said: "Just you and me brother". Not including Katara.