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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Azula's breakdown

  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [121]Jul 20, 2008
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    gilvatar wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    I am not against redemption. Some of my favorite stories are centered almost entirely around anti villians looking for redemption. But I believe there is a very, very fine line that, once crossed, there just is no turning back.

    KOTOR, Avatar, I can name a number of stories where I like where the bad guy becomes a good guy or THE good guy. But there is a line. A fine line.

    You played KOTOR too? I enjoyed that game. You're right, there is a line regarding redemption, and I believe that Azula is on the right side of the line. Ozai is a prime example of someone on the wrong side of the line, someone who is not going to be redeemed, not even a little bit. But I maintain that Azula is not above hope. If you remember, Iroh was once the Dragon of the West, the Fire Nations greatest general. He lead a great campaign against the Earth Kingdom that most likely had a far greater death toll than anything Azula has done. During the flashbacks in "Zuko Alone", he joked openly and lightly about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground, presumably after killing everyone who lived there. And yet Iroh was able to find redemption.

    True but there is one difference. Iroh had a son that he loved. When Lu Ten died he was like "This violence just cost me my son. This can't be the right path." Azula, at age what? 8, says "He should burn the city to the ground." (The irony or Iroh-ny there is that he kinda did but for the EK). I guess that makes it 2 differences. Azula doesn't love anyone and her answer is always violence.

    I think that Sozin's Comet established that Azula at least wanted her mother to love her. And whether you love someone or not, joking about burning down a city is no small thing.

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  • Avatar of -TheSecondSign-

    -TheSecondSign-

    [122]Jul 20, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    I am not against redemption. Some of my favorite stories are centered almost entirely around anti villians looking for redemption. But I believe there is a very, very fine line that, once crossed, there just is no turning back.

    KOTOR, Avatar, I can name a number of stories where I like where the bad guy becomes a good guy or THE good guy. But there is a line. A fine line.

    You played KOTOR too? I enjoyed that game. You're right, there is a line regarding redemption, and I believe that Azula is on the right side of the line. Ozai is a prime example of someone on the wrong side of the line, someone who is not going to be redeemed, not even a little bit. But I maintain that Azula is not above hope. If you remember, Iroh was once the Dragon of the West, the Fire Nations greatest general. He lead a great campaign against the Earth Kingdom that most likely had a far greater death toll than anything Azula has done. During the flashbacks in "Zuko Alone", he joked openly and lightly about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground, presumably after killing everyone who lived there. And yet Iroh was able to find redemption.

    Yes, I enjoyed KOTOR a lot.

    Revan was crazy awesome, but he only

    managed to find redemption because he was completely purged of what he was.

    His memories/mind and power were reduced to shambles before he found the light.

    Could a Azula be in a similar situation?

    It was suggested Azula may be a geniune sociopath. Revan was also adult and corrupted by the dark side as a Jedi, which puts him in a different league from that of Azula. I honestly don't know-or really care-until I see it for myself.

    Until she DOES feel sorry for what she did and tries to redeem herself, I don't feel pity for her.

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  • Avatar of Miamiheatboy3

    Miamiheatboy3

    [123]Jul 20, 2008
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    DrAvatar wrote:
    Did anyone else feel bad for Azula even though she was pure evil up until then?
    i sorta feel sorry for her but it was funny as hell
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  • Avatar of MisterWiseGuy

    MisterWiseGuy

    [124]Jul 20, 2008
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    Maylene wrote:
    LiLMewMew980 wrote:

    wilddog2k8 wrote:
    Yeah thats what I thought. Blue fire is hotter than regular orange-red fire so why isn't her fire more powerful than Zuko's...?!?!??!?!??!!

    Because the writers don't like explaining loopholes... Actually, I'm still trying to figure that out. I don't think it's the heat that matters.

    That gets me too. For a while I thought about gender being the issue but we've seen minor female firebending characters that bend with reg. fire.

    Well i'm pretty sure i can explain this, before "Fire Bending Masters" Zuko would always get pushed back buy Azula's fire but after he learned the right way to firebend his bending became alot stronger (Zuko even said so twice in that episode)

    in other words if Azula had learned the right way to firebend Zuko would get owned

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  • Avatar of MajehKing

    MajehKing

    [125]Jul 20, 2008
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    Zuko had a good chance of defeating Azula in this state. I think he would have won had she not tried to kill Katara. But let's be honest, half the time Azula is playing with people's heads; that confuses them and she takes advantage. Here she gets a taste of her own medicine thanks to her own paranoia. She's not the zone, and therefore could not defeat Zuko.

    I really don't see her recovering from this. She's spent an entire life manipulating and instilling fear in people. I don't think she knows how to love or at the least it's an emotion so alien to her that it may as well not exist. The best to hope for is that she stops having illusions. Maybe if Zuko finds their mother and confronts Azula with her, that might speed up her recovery.

    The question is: will anyone want that to happen? She's still the greatest threat to Zuko and the Fire Nation.
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  • Avatar of wilddog2k8

    wilddog2k8

    [126]Jul 20, 2008
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    MajehKing wrote:
    Zuko had a good chance of defeating Azula in this state. I think he would have won had she not tried to kill Katara. But let's be honest, half the time Azula is playing with people's heads; that confuses them and she takes advantage. Here she gets a taste of her own medicine thanks to her own paranoia. She's not the zone, and therefore could not defeat Zuko.

    I really don't see her recovering from this. She's spent an entire life manipulating and instilling fear in people. I don't think she knows how to love or at the least it's an emotion so alien to her that it may as well not exist. The best to hope for is that she stops having illusions. Maybe if Zuko finds their mother and confronts Azula with her, that might speed up her recovery.

    The question is: will anyone want that to happen? She's still the greatest threat to Zuko and the Fire Nation.


    ...Well she is only 14-15 years old, and considering the loong lives these people live...there is still hope for her yet. She WILL recover and she will become GOOD. I KNOW IT!!!!!
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  • Avatar of MajehKing

    MajehKing

    [127]Jul 20, 2008
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    I don't if I share your faith, my friend. Try as I might, I just can't see Azula and Zuko sharing a warm hug and drinking tea in the royal gardens. At the risk of soudning cliche, maybe she just needs to find someone; who's as crazy and wacked out as she is. True love will fix her up.
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  • Avatar of wilddog2k8

    wilddog2k8

    [128]Jul 20, 2008
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    MisterWiseGuy wrote:
    Maylene wrote:
    LiLMewMew980 wrote:

    wilddog2k8 wrote:
    Yeah thats what I thought. Blue fire is hotter than regular orange-red fire so why isn't her fire more powerful than Zuko's...?!?!??!?!??!!

    Because the writers don't like explaining loopholes... Actually, I'm still trying to figure that out. I don't think it's the heat that matters.

    That gets me too. For a while I thought about gender being the issue but we've seen minor female firebending characters that bend with reg. fire.

    Well i'm pretty sure i can explain this, before "Fire Bending Masters" Zuko would always get pushed back buy Azula's fire but after he learned the right way to firebend his bending became alot stronger (Zuko even said so twice in that episode)

    in other words if Azula had learned the right way to firebend Zuko would get owned



    I think I found the answer...I posted this question in another thread, and a fellow fan told me this:

    Azula is a firebending prodigy, and she is the ONLY one that can bend blue fire. It does not neccesarily mean she is more powerful, even though her fire is notably more powerful than an average firebender, but this strength can be achieved by training or learning the "right" way to firebend...from the dragons. This is why Zuko was evenly matched with her, even though she can still shoot lighting, redirected lighting is just as powerful, if not more becuase most lighting shooters dont expect it, and lighting travels at the speed of light, so it really is a split second realization for the orginal lightning shoooter. If Aang was not a little b!tch, Ozai would have been finished when Aang redirected the lightning. So there it is...Azula IS more powerful and skilled then average firebenders, but its nothing that can't be achieved by any other firebender. Its just like a class A running back like LT. LT is a prodigy, but Reggie Bush can also be just as good as LT if he continues to train and practice...lol
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  • Avatar of wilddog2k8

    wilddog2k8

    [129]Jul 20, 2008
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    wilddog2k8 wrote:
    MisterWiseGuy wrote:
    Maylene wrote:
    LiLMewMew980 wrote:

    wilddog2k8 wrote:
    Yeah thats what I thought. Blue fire is hotter than regular orange-red fire so why isn't her fire more powerful than Zuko's...?!?!??!?!??!!

    Because the writers don't like explaining loopholes... Actually, I'm still trying to figure that out. I don't think it's the heat that matters.

    That gets me too. For a while I thought about gender being the issue but we've seen minor female firebending characters that bend with reg. fire.

    Well i'm pretty sure i can explain this, before "Fire Bending Masters" Zuko would always get pushed back buy Azula's fire but after he learned the right way to firebend his bending became alot stronger (Zuko even said so twice in that episode)

    in other words if Azula had learned the right way to firebend Zuko would get owned



    I think I found the answer...I posted this question in another thread, and a fellow fan told me this:

    Azula is a firebending prodigy, and she is the ONLY one that can bend blue fire. It does not neccesarily mean she is more powerful, even though her fire is notably more powerful than an average firebender, but this strength can be achieved by training or learning the "right" way to firebend...from the dragons. This is why Zuko was evenly matched with her, even though she can still shoot lighting, redirected lighting is just as powerful, if not more becuase most lighting shooters dont expect it, and lighting travels at the speed of light, so it really is a split second realization for the orginal lightning shoooter. If Aang was not a little b!tch, Ozai would have been finished when Aang redirected the lightning. So there it is...Azula IS more powerful and skilled then average firebenders, but its nothing that can't be achieved by any other firebender. Its just like a class A running back like LT. LT is a prodigy, but Reggie Bush can also be just as good as LT if he continues to train and practice...lol


    lol..actually half the=at paragraph is elaboration of what the guy said...the rest is my genius mind at work!!!!!!!!!! MOPA or NYPA FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!
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  • Avatar of MisterWiseGuy

    MisterWiseGuy

    [130]Jul 20, 2008
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    great way to explain it
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  • Avatar of AzulaAlwaysWins

    AzulaAlwaysWins

    [131]Jul 20, 2008
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    On the assumption that Zuko does want to help his sister find the right path, do you think Aang will attempt to reduce her threat by taking away her bending, too? It would make sense, seeing as no one wants to get fried by a crazy Azula (CrAzula???) but can you imagine the effect that would have on her?! Everything that caused her breakdown was because things were lost or taken away from her. Then one day she learns that even her bending is gone? If she's not a total loss already, that would seal her fate. She'd propably want to kill herself, and if there is one scene that could top the disturbing score of her writhing on the ground like a wild animal, it would be that. (I still can't believe they showed something like that on Nickelodeon. Awesome, but...Jeez)
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  • Avatar of MisterWiseGuy

    MisterWiseGuy

    [132]Jul 20, 2008
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    but to be on subject i think Azula does have hope for redemption but only if Zuko can find their mother (sence that is the root of Azula's issues) and only though a long heart to heart can she begin to heal

    i don't know about u folks but to see Azula completely redemed and become a nice happy carefree person really wouldn't be right ...I mean it would feel like undermining the epic break down in Sozin's Comet ... or maybe thats just me?

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  • Avatar of AzulaAlwaysWins

    AzulaAlwaysWins

    [133]Jul 20, 2008
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    MisterWiseGuy wrote:

    but to be on subject i think Azula does have hope for redemption but only if Zuko can find their mother (sence that is the root of Azula's issues) and only though a long heart to heart can she begin to heal

    i don't know about u folks but to see Azula completely redemed and become a nice happy carefree person really wouldn't be right ...I mean it would feel like undermining the epic break down in Sozin's Comet ... or maybe thats just me?



    I'm with you there. A complete recovery would be...I can't quite think of the right term, but weird is close. She's most definitely a sociopath, and that is a personality disorder that is inherited. You can't fix that. If she could get to the headspace she was in at The Beach, when she was actually emoting with Ty Lee, that is probably the best she can get.
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  • Avatar of PsychoPass

    PsychoPass

    [134]Jul 20, 2008
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    Among manyinteresting things during the mirror scene, one that has really gotten me is Ursa's voice. It seemed so... off compared to what it was in Zuko Alone. In fact, it was very flat and insincere sounding. Was it a different voice actor or was there a reason for it sounding thusly? It could give us more insight into what was really going on in her head if the flat and insincere tone of voice Ursa had was really part of the hallucination (not a VA mess up or anything).
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  • Avatar of qtwanderer

    qtwanderer

    [135]Jul 20, 2008
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    I think also seeing Zuko's firebending out match her owns played a role. Throughout the fight we notice that she noticed that she could barely keep up...for the type of character she is thats not something that she would accept or be glad about, especially since she was always able to keep up with Zuko in a fight.
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  • Avatar of Maylene

    Maylene

    [136]Jul 20, 2008
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    Azula will heal, or at least can heal. Mike and Bryan said so themselves.
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  • Avatar of AzulaAlwaysWins

    AzulaAlwaysWins

    [137]Jul 20, 2008
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    qtwanderer wrote:
    I think also seeing Zuko's firebending out match her owns played a role. Throughout the fight we notice that she noticed that she could barely keep up...for the type of character she is thats not something that she would accept or be glad about, especially since she was always able to keep up with Zuko in a fight.


    It certainly didn't help. But I think that is more reactionary than a cause. There is definitely one shot during the fight that shows her clearly frustrated and confused by Zuko, though. I think she didn't even realize how broken she was during that fight, and that's why she was confused.

    Which brings me to the only thing that I found disappointing (besides not having the slightest clue about what actually happened to her). The firebending was awesome during their final battle, but am I the only one that thought Azula, being a prodigy and all, should have had the strongest boost by the comet? I was expecting an amazing new ability from her, like ball lightning or something. Yeah, maybe in her mental state she might not be able to control it or whatever (naysayers ), but all that pure rage and the comet should have combined into something of unspeakable pwnage.
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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [138]Jul 20, 2008
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    qtwanderer wrote:
    I think also seeing Zuko's firebending out match her owns played a role. Throughout the fight we notice that she noticed that she could barely keep up...for the type of character she is thats not something that she would accept or be glad about, especially since she was always able to keep up with Zuko in a fight.

    i smell bias. she wasn't always able to "keep up" with zuko. she always kicked his ass. and zuko did get much much better, but if azula wasn't completely insane he wouldn't have won

    i thought it was wierd how azula was still able to create lightning. aren't you supposed to be in a clear mental state? also, the power of lightning didn't increase because of the comet
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  • Avatar of qtwanderer

    qtwanderer

    [139]Jul 20, 2008
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    misterham wrote:
    qtwanderer wrote:
    I think also seeing Zuko's firebending out match her owns played a role. Throughout the fight we notice that she noticed that she could barely keep up...for the type of character she is thats not something that she would accept or be glad about, especially since she was always able to keep up with Zuko in a fight.

    i smell bias. she wasn't always able to "keep up" with zuko. she always kicked his ass. and zuko did get much much better, but if azula wasn't completely insane he wouldn't have won

    i thought it was wierd how azula was still able to create lightning. aren't you supposed to be in a clear mental state? also, the power of lightning didn't increase because of the comet
    Thats what I meant...I was just sugar coating it
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  • Avatar of AzulaAlwaysWins

    AzulaAlwaysWins

    [140]Jul 20, 2008
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    misterham wrote:
    also, the power of lightning didn't increase because of the comet


    It's a form of firebending, so it should have. Regardless, I still wanted to see her use the power of Sozin's comet.

    The mental state/lightning bending issue does appear to be a plot hole though. What were Iroh's exact words?
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