Nickelodeon (ended 2008)
AzulaAlwaysWins wrote: | ||
It's a form of firebending, so it should have. Regardless, I still wanted to see her use the power of Sozin's comet. The mental state/lightning bending issue does appear to be a plot hole though. What were Iroh's exact words? |
misterham wrote: | ||||
yeah, that's why i thought it was wierd. iroh said "to perform this technique requires peace of mind." |
Axrendale wrote: |
I do have to say that I loved the way in which Azula was finally defeated. It was the ultimate irony; ever since we first saw her she has been defeating opponents stronger than herself through trickery (think Iroh, Aang...), indeed, that was exactly what she did to Zuko - it is a measure of her sheer awesomeness that even when she had completely lost it she still figured out how to outsmart her opponent. Then, when she faced Katara, and for the first time in ages was up against a foe far weaker than her, she was herself defeated through trickery. If ever a villain was ever defeated through sheer irony, I think it is definitely Azula. Have you ever had the experience of falling in love with a character of a story? I don't know how it happened, but somehow, it happened to me with Azula. I did not become an Avatar fanatic the first time I saw the show, in fact I had seen several episodes before I fell in love with it. Why did I fall in love with it? Because I saw an episode with Azula in it. To be precise, it was 208, 'The Chase'. Up until that point, I had only seen a couple of episodes from Book 1, and the first ten minutes of "The Blind Bandit", and so when Azula first appeared during this episode I had no idea who she was, how she could shoot lightning, or how the heck anyone, no matter how awesome their character could be capable of easily beating the good guys, actually hurting one of them, on what I had previously taken to be just another Nickelodeon cartoon. I was fascinated, and it was this fascination that drove me to keep watching Avatar, ultimately becoming hopelessly addicted. Azula remained my favorite character (although Aang soon became a close second), and throughout book two, whenever she appeared in a fight, I found myself subconsciously cheering for her. I don't know what it was about her character that appealed to me at this point. Perhaps it was her sheer defiant will, her iron spirit, her refusal to submit. Perhaps it was her cunning, the cold calculation that made her such a good villain. Perhaps it was that she appeared to be an avid student of history (I love history, and am always willing to give anyone who takes an interest in it a chance). Perhaps it was the fact that she kicked butt. Perhaps it was simply the fact that she was hot (you can't deny it!). Either way, she continued to hold my interest. I approached the finale of book two therefore, with a great sense of trepidation. I was certain that Azula was heading towards a similar fate to Zhao, and while I knew that I would always remain loyal to Avatar, I had a gut feeling that I simply would never enjoy it the same way. But I was in for a big surprise. As the credits flashed across the screen (I was watching it on DVD) I simply sat on the couch, frozen, with so many different emotions racing through me that I think it was some time before I actually got up. As much as I had wanted Aang to win, I found myself glad that Azula had survived. Season three began to air not long afterwards, and before long the first four episodes had come and gone, and "The Beach" was on. And it was in this episode that for the first time we began to get the vague hints that Azula was something more than a cold-blooded villain. I think that Azula's chief problem is the fact that in addition to believing that her mother hated her, and thought that she was a monster, she also knew that her mother was right - she was a monster, in many senses of the word. And she believed that she could never be anything else. This soon lead to her belief that if her mother didn't love her, then nobody else could ever love her either. Her solution to the problem was to effectively cut herself off from all such emotions as love, friendship, etc. Ultimately, she came to live in a world of cold logic and ruthlessness, and she believed that everyone else thought the same way as she did. For all her brilliance at reading and manipulating people and their emotions she had no concept of other people's feelings. Her one saving grace was her friendship with Mai and Ty Lee. For all Azula's manipulations and domination of her friends, I feel that there was a friendship there, at some level, perhaps with the part of Azula that had originally been devastated by her mother's rejection. It was in the beach that we saw the this side of Azula for perhaps the only time, when she made a genuine effort to apologize to and comfort Ty Lee. It didn't last long, and it never showed itself again, but it was definitely there. It was Azula's insensitivity to other's feelings, as well as her natural assumption that everyone thought the way she did, that lead to her "miscalculation" at the Boiling Rock. Had she been in Mai's position, Azula would have forgotten all about Zuko, and done the "smart thing", AKA "You should have feared me more!". She had no idea that anyone was capable of loving someone else to the extent of dieing for them. When Mai, and soon after, Ty Lee, betrayed her, Azula was most likely devastated. Her friends had most likely been the only people other than her mother who she had ever felt close to, or wanted to feel close to. her immediate reaction was to go straight after the person she perceived as having been the cause of her friends betrayal - Zuko, but he evaded her. Azula was left alone with the realization that her close friends had betrayed her. And with this came the realization that if she could not control her friends (as she had believed was perfectly natural to do), she couldn't control anyone else either. We got the first hint of her new vulnerability in "The Phoenix King", during her conversation with Ozai. As soon as she heard that Ozai intended to leave her behind, Azula immediately jumped to the conclusion that her father was also turning on her - "You can't treat me like Zuko!". She was soon reassured by his decision to make her firelord, but the damage was done. Azula was left twitchy, jumpy, and constantly analyzing everyone and everything around her for the tiniest little sign that betrayal was coming. Soon, her paranoia had grown to such a level that she ordered everyone to depart believing that the only person she could count on was herself. As it turned out, she could no longer even trust herself, and the final straw was when she found even her hair betraying her. Up until this point, Azula had lead a rigidly controlled life, controlled by herself. Everything about her being was carefully maintained in a state of perfection. When she finally realized that she could no longer even control her hair, let alone the people around her, she recognized at some level that she had lost control of her own life. And with the careful, perfect, artificial being that she had fashioned herself into gone, the tiny remaining need for companionship, love, that remained in her came out in the form of Ursa, the person whose apparent rejection had originally decided Azula in what she would make of her life. What Azula never allowed herself to admit before was that her mother may have thought her a monster, but still loved her, still had hope for her. Azula could never allow herself to admit this, because the moment she did so, she admitted that she had been wrong, that she might have taken a different path in life to the one she had taken. It was with this realization that Azula finally gave in and admitted to herself that she had been wrong, that if she had realized earlier that her mother had actually loved her, then she could have lead an incredibly different life to the one she had. The revelation was too much for her, and she attempt to banish it, shattering the mirror. But it was too late. All of her concepts of life had been shattered. All she could think of to do was to go through with what she had originally intended to do, and be crowned firelord. But as the coronation was taking place, she had an apparent stroke of luck, in the form of the arrival of Zuko. Here at last for Azula was something she could fight, something she could blame all of her problems on. It had been Zuko who been the center of their mother's love. It had been Zuko who had caused Mai and Ty lee to betray her. It had been Zuko who had exposed her for lying to Ozai, potentially lessening his favor of her. In short, Zuko was someone she could take out all her anger on. The type of firebending Azula and Ozai favored was fueled by anger, rage, etc, etc, and Azula had plenty of that to call upon. Zuko's original firebending would have been stronger, but Azula's intensified blue fire was its match, and even though she might be tottering on the brink of utter insanity, Azula's prodigal mental abilities, her cunning and tactical genius, were intact. After a hard fought battle, Azula had defeated her brother once again. At last, it seemed that she had a chance of getting her life back together, having everything she ever dreamed of. But there was one small problem. Some pesky water tribe peasant girl was attempting to get to Zuko, heal him, bring him back to ruin Azula's life again. This could not be allowed. The waterbender was obviously inferior power-wise, so Azula most likely wasn't even thinking as she blindly barged after her, looking for the person who was trying to ruin things just as they seemed to be getting better, so she could burn her alive. The next thing Azula knew, she had been frozen in a block of ice, her hands had been chained, and moments later she saw Zuko, alive, and looking like he was going to live, and take everything she had had left. For Azula, it was the end. That is my interpretation of what went wrong with Azula. My only authority is as a person who has been fascinated with Azula for about a year and a half, and who continues to be fascinated by her, and what will happen to her now. Something that keeps coming up is; what will happen to Azula now? I say that she will heal. Everything about her life has changed, and I think that she has come to some fairly major revelations about that life. I personally think Azula will be the one (in the imaginary future of Avatar) who finds Ursa. What happens to Azula and where Ursa is are the two major gaps at the end of the story, and as such, I believe that they are related somehow. Whether Azula would be capable of the same type of redemption as her brother is very questionable, but it should be remembered that what originally shaped Azula's belief that she was always going to be a "monster", was her belief that her mother thought her so. If Ursa were to reassure Azula that she had hope, that would be a huge step in a possible redemption similar to the one Iroh guided Zuko along, possibly right down to the sickness and nightmares. I think that leaving these substantial holes at the end of their story may well be Bryke's final and greatest stroke of genius. Stories that tie up all the loose ends are the ones that lose all interst once they are finished. But the ones that leave dark corners unexplored, wide open futures, these are the stories that inspire fans to stay with them for years, attempting to explore those dark corners, those unspoken futures. Although the magnificent tale of the last airbender may be over, his world is not finished yet. But that will have to wait for another day.
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OMG. I was just saying almost te exact same thing to my mother today! I agree with everything to the last period. Like they say "Great minds think alike". And I love history as well! But this post says everything that I've been saying and thinking ever since I saw the finale. Excellent post my friend!
I recorded the fanale, but the first time I saw it, like on TV, I started crying when Zuko got shot. CRYING! I was laughing at azula up until then! It was hilarious! She SNAPPED! That was funny. And, no. Rehab is no longer possible. Scratch that. It never was. I felt sorry for her, but she deserved a fate worse than what she got.
Alright, hair! Prepair to meet your doom!
Again people, Bryke confirmed that:
1. Azula is NOT purely evil ("There are obviously some truly evil people in the world, but in the case of Azula, her repressed emotions and jealousies corroded her spirit and made her become that way.")
2. There IS a chance for healing ("Zuko and Katara spared her life, and who knows, she might have a chance to heal.")
Now you can debate on whether or not healing will succeed, or whether or not you pity Azula* but those two points cannot be argued with.
*Personally, though, I think it's obvious that she's supposed to be pitied. She's not intended to be liked, mind you, as she never did redeem herself in any way, but just pitied. It's like Gollum from Lord of the Rings; disgusting and crazed, but pitiful all the same.
I personally agree that Azula DID get what she deserved by snapping. That was payback for her evil deeds. However, as she too is a victim (like Darth Vader or the aforementioned Gollum), I still think that now that she has HAD her punishment, she deserves healing too.
Azula was such a great character. What happened to her was so disappointing, cause imo there was so much potential.
I was hoping at some point she would overthrow the Firelord in some sort of ultimate scheme, cause everything she'd done along with her personality just showed that she was superior and a beter villian.
The Phoenix king episode though made me think and hope that there'd be some continuation with Aang, after defeating Ozai, learning or having Ozai tell him to his surpise that Azula was the true threat, and that everything up to this point was part of her plan. That would've been a good plot twist, though if nothing, something to continue to series on. But no, and now Avatar's over, o well.
PsychoPass wrote: | ||||||
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I think that it might have had something to do with the fact that she was fighting Zuko. As I said in my really long post, I believe that Azula had come to see Zuko as one of the root sources of all her problems. Perhaps she imagined that killing him would help to solve her problems, and perhaps bring her some measure of peace.
djdfire wrote: | ||
OMG. I was just saying almost te exact same thing to my mother today! I agree with everything to the last period. Like they say "Great minds think alike". And I love history as well! But this post says everything that I've been saying and thinking ever since I saw the finale. Excellent post my friend! |
Thanks, it's always great knowing that someone agrees with what you just said.
PsychoPass wrote: | ||||||
Perhaps she is simply skilled enough. :/ If we take Iroh's words as the only way lightning can be generated and controlled, we have a plot hole. I think it's just her skill level though. |
DrAvatar wrote: |
Did anyone else feel bad for Azula even though she was pure evil up until then? |
djdfire wrote: | ||
OMG. I was just saying almost te exact same thing to my mother today! I agree with everything to the last period. Like they say "Great minds think alike". And I love history as well! But this post says everything that I've been saying and thinking ever since I saw the finale. Excellent post my friend! |
wilddog2k8 wrote: | ||||||||
I believe the statement by Iroh was "to LEARN this techniquem you must be at peace with your mind." After you learn it im pretty sure it doesn't matter how much peace you have. |
TimeHeroLink wrote: |
Again people, Bryke confirmed that: 1. Azula is NOT purely evil ("There are obviously some truly evil people in the world, but in the case of Azula, her repressed emotions and jealousies corroded her spirit and made her become that way.") 2. There IS a chance for healing ("Zuko and Katara spared her life, and who knows, she might have a chance to heal.") Now you can debate on whether or not healing will succeed, or whether or not you pity Azula* but those two points cannot be argued with. *Personally, though, I think it's obvious that she's supposed to be pitied. She's not intended to be liked, mind you, as she never did redeem herself in any way, but just pitied. It's like Gollum from Lord of the Rings; disgusting and crazed, but pitiful all the same. I personally agree that Azula DID get what she deserved by snapping. That was payback for her evil deeds. However, as she too is a victim (like Darth Vader or the aforementioned Gollum), I still think that now that she has HAD her punishment, she deserves healing too. |
EDITED Ah found it.
TimeHeroLink, mind elaborating on Zuko getting her back at the end to help restore her sanity? I didn't see that at all. I saw him getting back at her and telling her, that no she wasn't really sorry it had to end that way. The look he gave her IMO was simply pity---I saw no look of understanding from him.
TimeHeroLink, mind elaborating on Zuko getting her back at the end to help restore her sanity? I didn't see that at all. I saw him getting back at her and telling her, that no she wasn't really sorry it had to end that way. The look he gave her IMO was simply pity---I saw no look of understanding from him.
I think at this point Zuko's smart enough to know that if he gets Ursa back, then she'll naturally want to help her other child, Azula. And I honestly think, after witnessing that breakdown, that he wants to help her too. In "The Southern Raiders" it was pretty much shown that at heart he does still care for his sister, not to mention if he wants to fix the Fire Nation, helping Azula would be a big help in that goal.
And of course Azula wasn't sorry it had to end that way, she's wanted to do Zuko in for a long time now. I maintain that it's obvious that Azula was a victim, but it's also obvious that she was still a villain as well. Darth Vader of Star Wars. Gollum of Lord of the Rings. Gaara of Naruto. The list goes on. A tragic villain is always a victim, but still always a villain. It's a balance.
TimeHeroLink wrote: |
TimeHeroLink, mind elaborating on Zuko getting her back at the end to help restore her sanity? I didn't see that at all. I saw him getting back at her and telling her, that no she wasn't really sorry it had to end that way. The look he gave her IMO was simply pity---I saw no look of understanding from him. I think at this point Zuko's smart enough to know that if he gets Ursa back, then she'll naturally want to help her other child, Azula. And I honestly think, after witnessing that breakdown, that he wants to help her too. In "The Southern Raiders" it was pretty much shown that at heart he does still care for his sister, not to mention if he wants to fix the Fire Nation, helping Azula would be a big help in that goal. And of course Azula wasn't sorry it had to end that way, she's wanted to do Zuko in for a long time now. I maintain that it's obvious that Azula was a victim, but it's also obvious that she was still a villain as well. Darth Vader of Star Wars. Gollum of Lord of the Rings. Gaara of Naruto. The list goes on. A tragic villain is always a victim, but still always a villain. It's a balance. |
*warning: long rant*
Just like some of the other posters, I have been fascinated by Azula's character; her, and Zuko, were the reasons I kept up with Avatar. Deeply satisfied with the way the authors developed these two characters over the series, I'd like to offer some thoughts on the finale and the "current state" of Azula.
1. Azula's defeats at the hands of both Zuko and Katara were perfectly legit.
Zuko was obviously the stronger bending-wise, as he effortlessly blocked all Azula's attacks and retaliated with such force that finally sent her rolling on the ground. He even redirected her lightning at the most unfavorable circumstances possible - deflecting her surprise treacherous attack on Katara (and yes, it WAS redirected, if you watch the scene closely there are numerous signs - Zuko catching the lightning bolt in his hands, and then the flash of lightning which went nowhere, just like when Iroh and Aang redirected lightning not aiming at a particular target. Also, if it wasn't redirected, the comet-enhanced lightning would have surely killed Zuko outright). Had there been no Katara around, Zuko would have wiped the floor with Azula.
Katara, while being weaker (mainly due to the power of the comet and the absence of handy water), managed to outsmart Azula by luring her into a trap. That is a legit way of winning, and as was previously pointed out, Azula herself often won by trickery rather than brute force.
Of course, Azula was definitely disadvantaged by her mental state. Had she kept her calm, she would have 1) kept the Dai Li agents and the Imperial Firebenders, and set up an overwhelming trap for Zuko & Katara; 2) probably would have managed to use the comet's power more skillfully, and could have been a match for Zuko in a 1-on-1 Agni Kai.
Nonetheless, due to Zuko having improved tremendously over the course of the series, both in technique and in mental state, I do not believe Azula could have beaten him 1-on-1 even if fully sane. Maybe she could have held her own, but would require intervention of her allies, or trickery such as an attack on Katara, to gain the upper hand. The brute power she showed during the finale duel was not subpar in any way to what she demonstrated before; moreover, it was obviously enhanced by the comet, and her personal skill shows in that despite being in a mental disarray she still managed to bend lightning, in fact do it much quicker than in the past episodes.
That's why I believe Zuko and Katara's wins over Azula were legit, and yet they would have ultimately been defeated by her cunning and allies if she hadn't lost her sanity.
2. Zuko did have sympathy for Azula. Aside from elements of friendship shown during childhood flashbacks, and their interaction in the beginning of Season 3 when Zuko was with the Fire Nation, it has been firmly established when in Southern Raiders Azula's life was in mortal peril arguably for the first time in the series, and Zuko watched with a not insignificant trace of terror and pity for her as she fell down the abyss. There is also pity in his look at the defeated and bound Azula, it's just not as obvious due to 1) her not being in actual danger at the moment; 2) her almost killing him and Katara just now; 3) him being the reserved introvert who prefers to hide his thoughts & feelings. Plus, had he truly not felt any mercy for her, the brutally correct thing to do was to finish her off, like what he insisted Aang should do with Ozai.
3. Azula does have sympathy for Zuko. Again, apart from their childhood, and the bonding they shared before Zuko betrayed the Fire Nation (man, I can't get over the actor-Iroh's line in EIP: "Choose treachery - it's more fun!" This sh*t deserves to be immortalized in a motivational poster), Azula had Zuko at her mercy on several occasions, most notably, of course, in the finale when he was lying helplessly on the ground after being shot by lightning. She could have finished him easily, and in fact her newfound paranoia would have urged her to do so, to finally destroy this embodiment of all that's wrong with her life. Compared to Zuko, Katara was just so insignificant - physically she was no real threat to Azula at the moment, and mentally Azula never gave a damn about the waterbending peasantgirl. Yet instead of finishing off her greatest rival and the personalization of all her fears and hatred, she prefers to just leave "Zuzu" alone and go for the weakling girl. I believe this shows she has no intention of actually killing Zuko (unless it happens during a fight), and would prefer to keep him around, if only for mockery. This is almost the same reason she spared Mai and Ty Lee (though kept them out of her sight as they would have reminded her of a miscalculation, whereas a captive Zuko would remind her of victory). Her brother is simply a very important symbol to her - a symbol of the "alternative path" of kindness, mercy and love, which she wants to triumph over, but does not want to utterly destroy.
4. Azula was not ready in any way to challenge the Fire Lord. We have seen Ozai to be an extremely powerful Bender; probably, the most powerful in the world with the exception of Aang in Avatar State. He is also extremely cunning and charismatic, and commands unquestionable loyalty of the Fire Nation (as we have seen many times when observing Fire Nation people from generals to schoolchildren to commonfolk), so Azula couldn't hope to overthrow him in a coup-d'etat like she did with Long Feng (sp?) in Ba Sing Se. Finally, he has raised her as a favorite from birth, and we have been continuously witnessing how Azula looks up to him and definitely regards him as the father-figure and spiritual teacher. So on all levels (brute force, machiavellism and personal relationship) there is no chance of Azula overthrowing, or even wanting to overthrow Ozai. I'd say she looked perfectly happy when her father gave her control of the Fire Nation under his supreme rulership; she'd also be content with serving as his second-in-command until the time comes for him to retire. Even though she has no qualms about killing relatives to gain the throne (and Ozai was the one to actually give her an example of this), her father is simply too powerful, and too much an embodiment of her own ideals, for her to pursue this. Maybe when he became old and senile, but that's too far away.
5. As to the chance of Azula being healed. It is definitely there, and we didn't even need to see confirmation from the authors. Her character was obviously built with sympathetic traits that showed her villainy was not a calculated viciousness like Ozai's but a product of the environment, and in the right environment the sparks of humanity that still exist in her - love for her mother, friendship with Mai & Ty Lee, the complex feelings for Zuko, and even admiration for her father - could flare up and revivify her persona. If she could see meaning in life again, if she could receive assurance that the girls and her brother are not enemies but friends, and that fear/manipulation is not required to maintain their friendship, I think she would ultimately embrace these new values. Of course, it won't be an easy process (if Zuko could find mom, it would definitely speed things up); but neither is she beyond redemption like Ozai, whom we have seen in his defeat as stalwart in evil ways as ever. For Ozai, it's much simpler; he lost the game to a superior master (the Avatar), he sees and acknowledges the mistakes he's made, but if given a chance to start over again, he'd still follow the evil path, only more cunningly this time. In fact, a metaphysical parallel would be Ozai as the Fallen Angels, and Azula as the sinning mankind; both have free will to choose good or evil, but the Angels were so perfect in their understanding of the universe that they've made their choice once and for all, and can never be redeemed, while man, due to his imperfections, sins more as a mistake or as a reaction to the environment than a conscious choice of evil over good.
MajehKing wrote: |
Try as I might, I just can't see Azula and Zuko sharing a warm hug |
God, I can see them doing just that... Yes, that's what she needs - some "brotherly love"... Screw Maiko, Azuko forever!!
MajehKing wrote: |
and drinking tea in the royal gardens. |
In fact they were doing almost precisely that, after Ba Sing Se. In the royal gardens, feeding ducks and whatnot 8=)) I bet there was tea involved at some point as well.
MajehKing wrote: |
maybe she just needs to find someone; who's as crazy and wacked out as she is. True love will fix her up. |
Yeah... though she's not completely wacked (it's a condition, not a permanent trait I believe), but hooking up with a genuine villain and causing some mayhem would definitely be therapeutic for her... in a bad way 8=)) Seeing that the Avatar world is really short on villains after the finale, how about some "fatherly love" instead? Ozai and Azula breaking out of prison would be sweet - he'd provide the brains, and she the brawn.