Nickelodeon (ended 2008)
| xRamensx wrote: | ||||
I go more with destiny; I kind of have to since my religion doesn't generally believe in free will. But I think there's some part free will plays in destiny. I was going to say something, but my train of thought sort of hit a couch, went off track, and crashed. |
| tomtitan wrote: | ||||
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you know sometimes i question that with novels-did the author MEAN to put a symbol there or was it just a coincidence?
And what i think now is that a person cannot create metaphors, symbolism, puns etc etc without the knowledge of what those words mean...so when you learn that kind of stuff in school or whatever, it just sticks in your mind and without you realizing it, you create what you already know
sometimes the stuff is done purposefully and some isnt...we'll never know which is and isnt
(though on a side note: that dark cloud+sunshine looked purposeful because it was so random)
| anony6983 wrote: | ||||||
you know sometimes i question that with novels-did the author MEAN to put a symbol there or was it just a coincidence? sometimes the stuff is done purposefully and some isnt...we'll never know which is and isnt |
| anony6983 wrote: | ||||||
you know sometimes i question that with novels-did the author MEAN to put a symbol there or was it just a coincidence? sometimes the stuff is done purposefully and some isnt...we'll never know which is and isnt |
| DeeDuck33 wrote: | ||||||||
I absolutely love shows that invoke thought. Sometimes I want to think about what I'm watching instead of looking at idiots trying to get 15 minutes of fame. Avatar is way more real than a silly show such as Flavor of Love (I fail for even knowing what that is). I'm glad I learned how to analyze fiction in English... it such a useful skill. To be able to find the deeper meaning is a job well done. Let's talk destiny: I'm leaning more towards "your choices were just part of your overall destiny," but I don't really know. Maybe because of the choices you made, you come closer and closer to your true destiny. But I think show wise, it speaks more about free will. But that's still in the grey area. My favorite part about analyzing: metaphors. Notice how storms in Avatar appear during certain times. For example, in The Awakening, a storm errupted as Aang ran off to face the Firelord. Notice how it went along with how Aang was feeling. Wow, my attention span has just ran up. I'll post more later. |
| tomtitan wrote: | ||||||||||
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Metaphors... that's a good topic. I think we've talked enough about the free will versus destiny and even the destiny and fate as a theme in the series. Can we talk about allusions? Avatar has lots of allusions it takes from real life. Most people who don't watch the show think it's strictly based on Asian influences, but there can be allusions found that relate to other parts of the world, past or present. (I can't think of any right now, but I know there are some.)
| tomtitan wrote: | ||||||
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I don't believe in it just because of my religion; I have some inkling of a belief in free will. But I just don't focus on it that much.
I've said several times that Azula interests me very much, but so does the whole Fire Nation family. I'm going to analyze stuff, but doesn't mean I'm trying to put things in that aren't there. These are merely observations that I've gotten from the show and theories based off of them.
We know that in the family, Sozin, from Ozai's family, is supposed to be the "evil" side, and Roku, from Ursa's family, is supposed to be the "good" side. So in theory, that would make any offspring of Sozin's inherently evil, and Roku's pure. But what does that make Iroh? He has the same genetic background of Ozai, and yet, he made completely different life choices than he younger brother.
What could have made Iroh like that? I think he's a clear indication that you shouldn't take the genetic "good" and "evil" seriously, but he just used that as example that it might give Zuko a clue as to why he has struggled with his own decisions. I don't think anybody is born evil; it's your upbringing and how your mind reacts to that upbringing. Iroh's mind said 'I don't have to always have to do what my family has done.' The fact that Iroh might have been a prodigy, but wasn't power hungry, he had a different reaction than say, Azula, did.
Azula is also an example that you shouldn't take what Iroh said about Sozin and Roku literally. She has the same genetic background as Zuko, and she has made different decisions, and none of them good.
Ozai might have not been born naturally good at Fire Bending. Or, he could have been a prodigy as well, but since he was second born, Azulon paid Iroh a lot more attention. Let's look at this if Ozai wasn't a naturally good. The fact that Ozai was already born second, and he didn't meet the expectations Azulon already had for Iroh, he was pretty much screwed. So he had to work hard, and try to earn the love his father didn't return to him. Sound familiar?
Azulon probably saw that Ozai had to work so hard to even come close to Iroh, and rejected him for that. As Azula said in CoD "But true power, the divine right to rule, is something you're born with." Points away from Ozai's favor if he was, in fact, not a naturally gifted.
But like I said, we don't know how strong Ozai was in the beginning. From what we've seen in the show. Ozai hasn't seemed to make his own desisions that much. When Azulon told him to kill Zuko, Ozai said he was going to do it. Sure Ozai could have come up with a better option. But in his mind, if he did this, he'd get what he'd want, and didn't even consider the consequences. Ursa was the one to talk him out of it. She came up with another option, and he listened.
If there is one thing Ozai isn't, then that would genre savvy. He was completely surprised that Aang was still alive. He never thought that Azula could lie to him, even though he knows full well how clever she is. Zuko was orginally was like this early on too, but gradually, he has gotten better. We know that Azula is genre savvy incarnate. But what about Ursa? We've haven't seen enough of her to make a completel observation, but Azula must have gotten it from somewhere.
The show has shown us that our decisions play a huge part in our lives. Everyone is capable good and evil, but how we make our decisions is what separates us. Does that mean once someone makes a decision, you can't come back from that? Of course not! Look at Zuko; he spent all of S1 chasing Aang, spent S2 running from Azula, and sometimes going after Aang if they crossed paths, at the end of S2, he has the perfect opportunity to change sides, and, didn't. Then, in S3, he realized that pleasing his father wasn't what he wanted anymore. He figured out his own life purpose, but it took 16/17 years for him to realize what it was.
Does that mean Ozai would want to change sides? Probably not. Why would he? He has all this power and rules the Fire Nation and controls the Earth Kingdom.
Sorry I jumped around a bit; I was having trouble organizing my thoughts. But, as I said in the beginning, these are just theories; I'm not trying to analyze things that might not even be there.
| tomtitan wrote: |
| I think we have to be very careful when analysing literature, because sometimes we look for things that aren't really there. We don't know how many of these so-called metaphors the writers, creators, animators etc. actually intended. With some works of fiction the entire thing is metaphor, Lord of the Flies, for example. With others, some of it is metaphor, Of Mice And Men, for example. With most, none is metaphor, Spongebob, for example. With others, there are a couple of metaphors to keep smart people on their toes, but other than that not much, Avatar, for example. |
I take it you're an Intetionalist critic. That is: you try to figure out exactly what the author of a story intended. But there is another line of thought, "Reader response" criticism that holds that a reader's (or viewer's) interpretations are valid regardless of what the author intended.
| xRamensx wrote: |
| We know that Azula is genre savvy incarnate. But what about Ursa? We've haven't seen enough of her to make a completel observation... |
Maybe, but anyone logistically capable of killing Azulon (however she did it) is pretty damn savvy in my book.
[QUOTE="MaddoKos"]
| tomtitan wrote: |
| I think we have to be very careful when analysing literature, because sometimes we look for things that aren't really there. We don't know how many of these so-called metaphors the writers, creators, animators etc. actually intended. With some works of fiction the entire thing is metaphor, Lord of the Flies, for example. With others, some of it is metaphor, Of Mice And Men, for example. With most, none is metaphor, Spongebob, for example. With others, there are a couple of metaphors to keep smart people on their toes, but other than that not much, Avatar, for example. |
| xRamensx wrote: |
| We know that Azula is genre savvy incarnate. But what about Ursa? We've haven't seen enough of her to make a completel observation...QUOTE] Maybe, but anyone logistically capable of killing Azulon(however she did it) is pretty damn savvy in my book. |
Yeah. I think she's genre savvy, but I had already made a bunch of assumptions, I didn't want to make too many.
In my eyes, Ursa and Azula are pretty bad*ss. No.. Not pretty. Very.
| MaddoKos wrote: | ||||
Yeah. I think she's genre savvy, but I had already made a bunch of assumptions, I didn't want to make too many. In my eyes, Ursa and Azula are pretty bad*ss. No.. Not pretty. Very. |
Those ideas could swing back and forth
| xRamensx wrote: | ||||||
Those ideas could swing back and forth |
What do you mean by that?
| xRamensx wrote: | ||||||
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But their attitudes are, of course, totally different. Ursa only did what she did to save Zuko.
Azula, meanwhile, has a kind of Lady MacBeth thing going on.
| Vxiel wrote: | ||||||||
What do you mean by that? |
Meaning one of them is probably true to some while the latter to others (I really don't think I know what I'm talking about here)
| Vxiel wrote: | ||||||||
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That's true, generally I try to employ both when reading or watching something. But I'm more partial to intentionlist.
| xRamensx wrote: | ||||||
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But Ursa did what she did to protect what she loves.
Azula does what she does, yes probably for the sheer enjoyment, but also, I think she does it to protect her father. She sort of uses her status to hide a little bit. If she had been of low birth, and still acted like she does now, who knows what would have happened to her.
But yes, they're overall attitudes are fairly different. But for some reason, I don't see them as completely different. They fight for what is important to them. Azula doesn't actually fight if she doesn't have to. She doesn't rush head-on into a fight, she figures out what what needs to be done and how much force she has to use. If Ursa actually did kill Azulon, then she had been seen (frim what we saw) as an obedient woman who only spoke out if she had to. If Zuko's life, her son's life, was threatened. Then she's going to bite back at whatever the threat is.
| MaddoKos wrote: | ||||||||
But Ursa did what she did to protect what she loves. Azula does what she does, yes probably for the sheer enjoyment, but also, I think she does it to protect her father. She sort of uses her status to hide a little bit. If she had been of low birth, and still acted like she does now, who knows what would have happened to her. But yes, they're overall attitudes are fairly different. But for some reason, I don't see them as completely different. They fight for what is important to them. Azula doesn't actually fight if she doesn't have to. She doesn't rush head-on into a fight, she figures out what what needs to be done and how much force she has to use. If Ursa actually did kill Azulon, then she had been seen (frim what we saw) as an obedient woman who only spoke out if she had to. If Zuko's life, her son's life, was threatened. Then she's going to bite back at whatever the threat is. |
| xRamensx wrote: | ||||||||||
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True. Then you can look at it as Azula doing it to protect who she loved; herself.
But have you noticed that Azula's ways of messing with people depends completely who it is? If it's the Gaang, it's sadistic, if it's Zuko, it's mean, and sometimes pretty cruel, but in "The Beach" when she stepped on and kicked that sandcastle, that was pretty childish. Granted it was a child she was messing with, but I think it's funny how it changes on the situation.
Azula: Filled with awesome and lulz at the same time.
