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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Sozin's Comet (Series Finale) Official Discussion Thread - (*Major Spoilers*)

Rate the finale! How was it?

  • Avatar of MarryLarry

    MarryLarry

    [4361]Sep 12, 2008
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    The episodes "The Headband" and "The Painted Lady" were in the show for a reason. They showed that a lot of the citizens were either misguided by propaganda or oppressed into obedience. I don't think it's a stretch to assume situations like these happened throughout many, if not most, of the country.

    Not too mention in real world monarchies, whether heirs take the throne legally or through a coup, the general population usually conforms to their new leader's will. Remember, they have no idea what democracy is since they never had it to begin with. So going with the next guy in line makes the most sense to them.

    Edited on 09/12/2008 11:17am
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4362]Sep 12, 2008
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    Sektos wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Sektos wrote:
    FN people definitely love their country and most properably respect the Fire Lord, how ever it was very easy for Aang to get to those kids. Also the people in Painted Lady were angry at the military for wrecking their homes, and though they were mad at Katara for a minute it took little for them to accept her afterwards. From what we've seen its a fair balance for the FN and they could be convinced. Its not so much they doubt their government, thou im sure some do, but that they grow disheartened by the war and effect its having on them, they simple dont agree with some of the FN's choice etc etc.
    Sorry to ignore you, PsychoPass, but I've got to win this arguement Kids are kids. It doesn't take a lot to distract them. It shouldn't have been that hard to make them express themselves. I mean, have you ever talked to a 10 year old? They CRAVE to be set free. Also, the village in The Painted Lady was pretty much isolated from the FN except for the factory. They are somewhat like the Swamp Benders. Also, they have no schools to teach them to love the FN.
    Okay seriuously (and quickly im in class right now ) Whats more believeable? The crowd hearing Ozai and Azula's plot (and being disgusted), witnessing Azula dishounouring herself (unfit to rule) and Zuko sacrifice himself for some one else and thus Accept him OR Zuko fighting Azula with 4 witnesses (some small number like that, cant remember exact) and no one else but Katara, Said royal princess being chained up and their FL nearly killed and rendered powerless. OH YEAH the people are REALLY going to rally around Zuko after that and totally stop the war (SARCASM!) lol Its a cartoon and fantasy so of course you have to suspend some disbelief BUT it still needs (in a show like Avatar) some element of realism and Zuko being accepted after the scenario presented in the show has a few too many holes

    That's where Azula's maddness comes into play - she banished everyone who might have stood by her and Ozai. And the people really would have actually had no choice in the matter. You forget - Aang is now a fully realized Avatar, and without Sozin's Comet to hold him off, the war was over, no matter what the FN might want. Aang being able to pull of stunts like his decimation of the Fire navy in 120 whenever he feels like it no doubt played a huge role in the FNs willingness to disarm.

    Edited on 09/12/2008 8:20pm
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4363]Sep 12, 2008
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    So, so, so epic.
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  • Avatar of bl0ndi3girl18

    bl0ndi3girl18

    [4364]Sep 12, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:


    So, so, so epic.

    there no pic!
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4365]Sep 12, 2008
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    Really? I can see it. GAH IT WAS SO EPIC!
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  • Avatar of bl0ndi3girl18

    bl0ndi3girl18

    [4366]Sep 12, 2008
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    haha all it says it PHOTOBUCKET
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4367]Sep 12, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Really? I can see it. GAH IT WAS SO EPIC!

    I can see it too

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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4368]Sep 12, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:

    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Really? I can see it. GAH IT WAS SO EPIC!

    I can see it too


    How awesome is that?! I was surfing photobucket. I forgot how epic the finale was. I haven't seen it in a couple weeks
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  • Avatar of bl0ndi3girl18

    bl0ndi3girl18

    [4369]Sep 12, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Really? I can see it. GAH IT WAS SO EPIC!

    I can see it too


    How awesome is that?! I was surfing photobucket. I forgot how epic the finale was. I haven't seen it in a couple weeks

    grrr i wish i could see it
    what is it a pic of?
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4370]Sep 12, 2008
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    bl0ndi3girl18 wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Really? I can see it. GAH IT WAS SO EPIC!

    I can see it too


    How awesome is that?! I was surfing photobucket. I forgot how epic the finale was. I haven't seen it in a couple weeks

    grrr i wish i could see it
    what is it a pic of?

    When Aang and Ozai fight in the finale. Soooo epic.
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  • Avatar of bl0ndi3girl18

    bl0ndi3girl18

    [4371]Sep 12, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    bl0ndi3girl18 wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Really? I can see it. GAH IT WAS SO EPIC!

    I can see it too

    How awesome is that?! I was surfing photobucket. I forgot how epic the finale was. I haven't seen it in a couple weeks
    grrr i wish i could see it what is it a pic of?
    When Aang and Ozai fight in the finale. Soooo epic.
    haha i love it when he pops outta the rocks when he's in the Avatar State and grabs Ozia beard thing Ozia's face = O_O
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  • Avatar of avataraang113

    avataraang113

    [4372]Sep 12, 2008
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    bl0ndi3girl18 wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    bl0ndi3girl18 wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Really? I can see it. GAH IT WAS SO EPIC!

    I can see it too

    How awesome is that?! I was surfing photobucket. I forgot how epic the finale was. I haven't seen it in a couple weeks
    grrr i wish i could see it what is it a pic of?
    When Aang and Ozai fight in the finale. Soooo epic.
    haha i love it when he pops outta the rocks when he's in the Avatar State and grabs Ozia beard thing Ozia's face = O_O

    haha...ya..ozai is like, oh sh*t!!! what the h3ll is happening???

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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [4373]Sep 13, 2008
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    MarryLarry wrote:

    The episodes "The Headband" and "The Painted Lady" were in the show for a reason. They showed that a lot of the citizens were either misguided by propaganda or oppressed into obedience. I don't think it's a stretch to assume situations like these happened throughout many, if not most, of the country.

    Not too mention in real world monarchies, whether heirs take the throne legally or through a coup, the general population usually conforms to their new leader's will. Remember, they have no idea what democracy is since they never had it to begin with. So going with the next guy in line makes the most sense to them.

    Always good post MarryLarry But those coups have always had some key figures in the country behind them and more people on there sides. 100 years of properganda would need a proper revelation of truth for the people to accept a "one-person" (there's katara, but shes not FN) coup. They wouldnt just stop the war, and having Avatar back wouldnt stop them. He's been there for most of the year now but the army has continued and conquered Ba Sing Sei (sooo would have loved more footage of White Lotus taking it back), and once comit was gone then Iroh and other FB master would lose their advantage. FN still prob had blimps and definitely their Navy.

    THey would need a REALLY good reason to convert to the ZUko/Aang side, which i believe would have been the truth of Ozai and Azula's plan of Genocide and destruction, Azula dishonoring herself and (only partial, too over top in finale) madness making her unfit to rule, and Zuko's self sacrifice and refusal to finish off Azula (because i do believe he should have had a more solidified victory b4 Azula attacked Katara) showing his honor

    Good post Axrendale but my problem with that (apart from above reasons) is that the FN was thus FORCED to stop against their will, meaning that they still want and believe in the war, and are basically being dictated by Zuko and Aang who they dont believe in. They need a passive reason to convince themselves to stop, that its their choice. They needed to have had the truth revealed to them about the war and their leaders, not just having them locked away and all their hands tied and told to be good "or else". Im not nieve enough to think everyone accepted ZUko at end of show, and if ever their is a direct spin-off or continuance im sure it'll be brought up, but the majority of the people needed to have been behind ZUko for him to succesfully end the war.

    Edited on 09/12/2008 11:09pm
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4374]Sep 13, 2008
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    Sektos wrote:
    MarryLarry wrote:

    The episodes "The Headband" and "The Painted Lady" were in the show for a reason. They showed that a lot of the citizens were either misguided by propaganda or oppressed into obedience. I don't think it's a stretch to assume situations like these happened throughout many, if not most, of the country.

    Not too mention in real world monarchies, whether heirs take the throne legally or through a coup, the general population usually conforms to their new leader's will. Remember, they have no idea what democracy is since they never had it to begin with. So going with the next guy in line makes the most sense to them.

    Always good post MarryLarry But those coups have always had some key figures in the country behind them and more people on there sides. 100 years of properganda would need a proper revelation of truth for the people to accept a "one-person" (there's katara, but shes not FN) coup. They wouldnt just stop the war, and having Avatar back wouldnt stop them. He's been there for most of the year now but the army has continued and conquered Ba Sing Sei (sooo would have loved more footage of White Lotus taking it back), and once comit was gone then Iroh and other FB master would lose their advantage. FN still prob had blimps and definitely their Navy.

    THey would need a REALLY good reason to convert to the ZUko/Aang side, which i believe would have been the truth of Ozai and Azula's plan of Genocide and destruction, Azula dishonoring herself and (only partial, too over top in finale) madness making her unfit to rule, and Zuko's self sacrifice and refusal to finish off Azula (because i do believe he should have had a more solidified victory b4 Azula attacked Katara) showing his honor

    Good post Axrendale but my problem with that (apart from above reasons) is that the FN was thus FORCED to stop against their will, meaning that they still want and believe in the war, and are basically being dictated by Zuko and Aang who they dont believe in. They need a passive reason to convince themselves to stop, that its their choice. They needed to have had the truth revealed to them about the war and their leaders, not just having them locked away and all their hands tied and told to be good "or else". Im not nieve enough to think everyone accepted ZUko at end of show, and if ever their is a direct spin-off or continuance im sure it'll be brought up, but the majority of the people needed to have been behind ZUko for him to succesfully end the war.

    There was always going to have to be a bit of brow-beating to force the FN to stop fighting, whether Zuko had been Firelord or no. The original plan that the gaang had had back in B2, if you remember was an all out invasion of the Fire Nation by the Earth Kingdom, putting a stop to them that way.

    The thing that probably worked best to Zuko and Aang's advantage was that the people of the Fire Nation are very, very compliant. They have, by and large, developed a natural instinct for looking to the most powerful people around for direction. Ozai has lost his Firebending, and Azula is suffering from a mental breakdown. They are no longer the most powerful people around - now everyone's looking to Iroh, Zuko, and Aang. Ironically, it was most likely the Firelords of the past who inspired this "shut up and do as you're told" attitude in the nation.

    As to the first part of your post, I really don't think that it would have been enough. Ozai's plan to burn down the Earth Kingdom was already public knowledge - I seriously doubt he made any secret of where he was going, and Azula apparently had no qualms about shouting out the plan in public when he said she couldn't come with her. Also, this isn't the first time that the FN has done something like this. 100 years before, the people of the Fire nation had no problem with Firelord Sozin wiping out the Air Nomads - why should they have any more trouble with Phoenix King Ozai obliterating the Earth Kingdom?

    Did you catch the post I made a few pages back about Julius Caesar? It is one of many, many examples that can be provided that when well respected rulers feel like smashing their "honor" to pieces to make more convenient winning a battle, their subordinates are usually quite willing to simply accept whatever reasoning they care to provide.

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    gilvatar

    [4375]Sep 13, 2008
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    U have good points about the plan AX, but remember that in "The HEadband" we learned that the firenation put some kind of spin on the story of wiping out the Air Temples so they would have put a spin on the Pheonix King plan.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4376]Sep 13, 2008
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    gilvatar wrote:
    U have good points about the plan AX, but remember that in "The HEadband" we learned that the firenation put some kind of spin on the story of wiping out the Air Temples so they would have put a spin on the Pheonix King plan.

    No matter how much spin they might put on it, they could not have covered up the fact that the Air Nomads had been completely exterminated. To justify themselves, they altered the story to make it sound as though the AN had been a serious threat, complete with an army that Sozin had had to defeat. In the case of the EK however, Ozai and Azula really wouldn't have had to think to hard to come up with an excuse - they already had one - the Earthbender rebellions. It would probably have been very easy to blow those rebellions out of all proportion to justify wiping them out.

    Edited on 09/13/2008 3:11pm
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  • Avatar of MarryLarry

    MarryLarry

    [4377]Sep 13, 2008
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    Sektos wrote:
    MarryLarry wrote:

    The episodes "The Headband" and "The Painted Lady" were in the show for a reason. They showed that a lot of the citizens were either misguided by propaganda or oppressed into obedience. I don't think it's a stretch to assume situations like these happened throughout many, if not most, of the country.

    Not too mention in real world monarchies, whether heirs take the throne legally or through a coup, the general population usually conforms to their new leader's will. Remember, they have no idea what democracy is since they never had it to begin with. So going with the next guy in line makes the most sense to them.

    Always good post MarryLarry But those coups have always had some key figures in the country behind them and more people on there sides. 100 years of properganda would need a proper revelation of truth for the people to accept a "one-person" (there's katara, but shes not FN) coup. They wouldnt just stop the war, and having Avatar back wouldnt stop them. He's been there for most of the year now but the army has continued and conquered Ba Sing Sei (sooo would have loved more footage of White Lotus taking it back), and once comit was gone then Iroh and other FB master would lose their advantage. FN still prob had blimps and definitely their Navy.

    I think Zuko counts as a key figure, and the majority of a population of a country doesn't necessarily need to be on the coup's leader's side in order for the coup leader to gain control of the nation.

    I could go on and on, listing examples and excuses and making hypothetical scenarios that support this but that's not my point.

    I'll I'm trying to get across is that it's not a plot hole that the FN citizen's now support Zuko. Sure, you need to make a few assumptions, but it's not so far out of the realm of probability that it's worthy enough to be considered a logic error.

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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [4378]Sep 14, 2008
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    MarryLarry wrote:
    Sektos wrote:
    MarryLarry wrote:

    The episodes "The Headband" and "The Painted Lady" were in the show for a reason. They showed that a lot of the citizens were either misguided by propaganda or oppressed into obedience. I don't think it's a stretch to assume situations like these happened throughout many, if not most, of the country.

    Not too mention in real world monarchies, whether heirs take the throne legally or through a coup, the general population usually conforms to their new leader's will. Remember, they have no idea what democracy is since they never had it to begin with. So going with the next guy in line makes the most sense to them.

    Always good post MarryLarry But those coups have always had some key figures in the country behind them and more people on there sides. 100 years of properganda would need a proper revelation of truth for the people to accept a "one-person" (there's katara, but shes not FN) coup. They wouldnt just stop the war, and having Avatar back wouldnt stop them. He's been there for most of the year now but the army has continued and conquered Ba Sing Sei (sooo would have loved more footage of White Lotus taking it back), and once comit was gone then Iroh and other FB master would lose their advantage. FN still prob had blimps and definitely their Navy.

    I think Zuko counts as a key figure, and the majority of a population of a country doesn't necessarily need to be on the coup's leader's side in order for the coup leader to gain control of the nation.

    I could go on and on, listing examples and excuses and making hypothetical scenarios that support this but that's not my point.

    I'll I'm trying to get across is that it's not a plot hole that the FN citizen's now support Zuko. Sure, you need to make a few assumptions, but it's not so far out of the realm of probability that it's worthy enough to be considered a logic error.



    Haha we'll have to agree to disagree on this one MarryLarry And its so much whats more believable (though i do believe mine is, but wateva) but what would have been more satisfying.

    With the highlighted section of my post- "But those coups have always had some key figures in the country behind *them* and more people on there sides"

    As in the person making the coup. SO Zuko doesnt count. I mean Lords, Ladys, generals who secretely or openly supported the person seeking to take power. Prob with it being Iroh and Zuko is as Axrendale said- THEY ARE TRAITORS, and the people have been subject to properganda for so long. WHY would they suddenly drop it all for a Traitor?

    Axrendale, no offense at allll intended, but your starting to contridict yourself. First you were saying that my sceneario wouldnt work because the people are too brainwashed to have Allowed Zuko there IF Azula hadnt gone so crazy (which is part of my Scenario) and at same time they would not count her "cheating" in the Ang Ki as being dishonourable and would be rooting for her

    BUT you then say that they would accept Zuko being in charge without restraint because they are to compliant to Fire Lord (WHO was Ozai) to fight back, and that knowingly and willingly supporting the genocide and war they would subcome after 100 years to ZUko's side- after having said they are too brainwashed with war properganda to not support Azual if they were present at fight?

    Are they people of any free choice who would believe the Avatar and Zuko to stop war, are they brainwashed into full-heartingly worshipping the "war", or are they mindless zombies who just follow the Firelord??? It cant be all of them.

    When Azula mentioned plan she was right up on podium with royal gaurds and her father, i doubt that people could hear her all the way back, and from look of it most were soldiers. Also when they say EK they may not mean BURNING THE ENTIRE CONTINENT! Also if it was general knowledge then why hadnt the Gaang found out about b4 Zuko told them? why wasnt it in the play? Again "my" scenario, which is an alternative to the one presented SO it doesnt have same things happening, the people only generally, IF at all, knew the plan. Zuko would have explained the truth behind the war (from Sozin's scroll), its wrongs and Ozai's full plan. He would have challenged, or azula, or both to Ang Ki. Azula would have been more thoroughly defeated by Zuko who lets her live (imagine it like how he was scarred), and her attempt to kill at bystander in order to Kill ZUko would have been last straw. He would have Claimed his birth right by having won, and via the people (who would ahve been lords etc present).

    The cheering at that Corenation at end of finale was for a hero, ZUko and (the "true" noe according to him) Aang. WHy would a nation intent on Genocide and War think of them as hero's at all for defeating Their firelord (who they loved in the play EVEN THOU the Gaang were good guys in it) and forcing them (according to some post by Axrendale ) throu force with Avatar to submit.

    We knew DOBS would fail either before it was revealed it was mid-season (common on! powerless OZai, Gaang just waltz throu? not very engaging ) or after. IF they had succeeded with EK they would have forced the war to end but resentment would still be there, as would their true Lord Ozai, and they would have rebelled JUST LIKE EK were doing in S3 and wat caused (partially, i think he always wanted this in a way) Ozai to want to wipe the kingdom "clean".

    BUT anyway. Its my opinion Finale was still awesome! i just personally think there were things that definitely need to be said and done.
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    Sektos

    [4379]Sep 14, 2008
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    I ment NOT so much at the top lol
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    Sektos

    [4380]Sep 14, 2008
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    Haha just reread my post dont think i explained somethings too well, but anyway. I submit- no more lol! I still think there's a hole there that could have had more time devoted to it. Ultimate;y i think we all would have liked a longer finale to iron more things out (eg Katara feelings from EIP) and im sad we never got Zutoph adventure - would have been awesome. THere was so much this season, i know supposably the creators planned all this out, but i did feel like S3, unlike one and 2, was rushed in places. But ulitimately a great series

    Still perfer my scenario, BUT i do get what you guys are saying. BUt im not going to drag out this debate anymore lol its taken up so much of the thread and i should be doing more work lol

    Still, loved chatting to ppl again about ideas on this forum , been ages and makes me sad to think this show is (for the moment) over

    Edited on 09/14/2008 4:54am
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