Nickelodeon (ended 2008)
| rgc19 wrote: |
| I won't pinpoint specifics, but in a small way, Avatar serves as a cautionary tale against rampant imperialism. Now you might look at me like I'm crazy. "Ozai was crazy. He only conquered because he sought absolute power and believed the fire nation superior in nature to the other provinces", you'll say. But this was an evolved mindset. Take a look at the episode in which Roku shows Aang his past. Sozin proposes to Roku that the fire nation, in all of its glory, should spread its wealth amongst the other nations. Roku wisely declined, foreseeing the inherent problems with Sozin's reasoning. While the initial proposition (spread the wealth) is seemingly a noble one, it will often lead to imperialist agressions. Fast forward one hundred years and what do we have? An evil empire that has lost its once admirable ideals. The problem, you could argue, is not with the rulers of the fire nation (though they are/were flawed) but with the mere notion of imperialism, in any form, however small. Ya dig? |
I see your point. The fact is that many of history's most brutal conquests started out as seemingly noble causes. Genghis Khan (mentioned above), initially set out to attack China in order to liberate his people from centuries of Chinese manipulation and domination of Mongolia. Alexander the Great set out to attack Persia in order to eliminate the threat of another invasion of Greece. Julius Caesar conquered the entire Roman empire in order to liberate the people from the brutal oligarchy that the Roman government had become.
None of these stories were propaganda; the three men mentioned above (generally considered the three greatest tactical geniuses of all time) genuinly believed in their proclaimed causes. Unfortunatly, all of them eventually were completely carried away. Genghis's liberation quest was sidetracked into Samarkand, and suddenly it had transformed into an all-out wave of conquest. Alexander the Great's problem was that he quite frankly didn't know when to stop. Julius Caesar too somewhere along the line went from freeing the empire from tyranny to taking the opportunity to double its territories.
Sooner or later, it all just gets out of hand.
| rgc19 wrote: |
| Anybody agree with me? |
Yep (see above post).
| Axrendale wrote: | ||
I see your point. The fact is that many of histories most brutal conquests started out as seemingly noble causes. Genghis Khan (mentioned above), initially set out to attack China in order to liberate his people from centuries of Chinese manipulation and domination of Mongolia. Alexander the Great set out to attack Persia in order to eliminate the threat of another invasion of Greece. Julius Caesar conquered the entire Roman empire in order to liberate the people from the brutal oligarchy that the Roman government had become. None of these stories were propaganda; the three men mentioned above (generally considered the three greatest tactical geniuses of all time) genuinly believed in their proclaimed causes. Unfortunatly, all of them eventually were completely carried away. Genghis's liberation quest was sidetracked into Samarkand, and suddenly it had transformed into an all-out wave of conquest. Alexander the Great's problem was that he quite frankly didn't know when to stop. Julius Caesar too somewhere along the line went from freeing the empire from tyranny to taking the opportunity to double its territories. Sooner or later, it all just gets out of hand. |
My American-Civil-War-Buff Brain is telling me to compare the siege of Ba Sing Se to Vicksburg. Unfortunately for me, the siege of Vicksburg eventually was successful.
At the risk of offending someone, I sense Stonewall Jackson in both Admiral Zhao and Azula... outwardly cool and composed, but absolutely insane on the inside. Though that is a bit of my own personal opinion about said historical figure. An example of what makes me feel this way: During one of the battles of Jackson's Wally Campaign of 1862, Jackson called for an aide, only to be told the young man had been killed. "Commendable, very commendable," was Jackson's only comment. To me this seems like something one of them might say sort-of-offhand in a situation like that, if they didn't just ignore it completely.
Well, I tried. I could probably come up with some battle analogies if I thought about it a little more.
| AlexandriteTopa wrote: |
My American-Civil-War-Buff Brain is telling me to compare the siege of Ba Sing Se to Vicksburg. Unfortunately for me, the siege of Vicksburg eventually was successful. At the risk of offending someone, I sense Stonewall Jackson in both Admiral Zhao and Azula... outwardly cool and composed, but absolutely insane on the inside. Though that is a bit of my own personal opinion about said historical figure. An example of what makes me feel this way: During one of the battles of Jackson's Wally Campaign of 1862, Jackson called for an aide, only to be told the young man had been killed. "Commendable, very commendable," was Jackson's only comment. To me this seems like something one of them might say sort-of-offhand in a situation like that, if they didn't just ignore it completely. Well, I tried. I could probably come up with some battle analogies if I thought about it a little more. |
| AlexandriteTopa wrote: |
| Yeah, Azula's a lot crueler. But if you make Ozai Robert E. Lee, than Azula is his right hand man, so to speak, like Jackson was to Lee. Jackson was shot by his own men at Chancellorsville. Azula was sort-of taken down by her own, depending on how you look at Mai, Ty Lee, and even Ursa in terms of which side they were actually on. Still stretching it, maybe, but this is fun. |
| isabelwhatx wrote: |
| It is very similar to WWII in the fact that the Fire Nation thinks they are superior. It's a scary thing. |
| laurenmoo78 wrote: | ||
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| isabelwhatx wrote: | ||||
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Please can there be no WW2 references on this thread. I know that it technically comes under the term of history, but the fact is that quite a few people can be quite sensitive about the subject of world war 2, and that was what got a similar thread to this locked.
So lets keep the history here to the stuff that isn't going to upset anyone.
And on the subject of Azula, the historical figure that I associate her with after seeing the finale is Emperor Shi Huang Di of China. I will post about that in a bit.
the earth kingdom was the hardest nation to conoqueor.
same as carthage, they fought many bloody battles for Rome to finally conquer Hannibal of Carthage.
Hmm... to me, Genghis Khan and his Mongol Empire seem very reminicent of Chin the Conqueror of Kyoshi's time. Actually, now that I think of it, Chin reminds me more of Alexander the Great in the fact that both conquered extreamly large ammounts of land only to be stopped/ killed just short of reaching their goals (Alexander= India, Chin= Kyoshi Island).
Here's another that came to mind. Ba Sing Se could be considered an Avatar version of the ancient Greek city of Troy. Inpenatrable walls which no foreign army has ever been able to break (took the Greeks and their superior numbers ten years and they still didnt break them). Both were incredibly prosperous and offered sanctuary for those outside their walls. Not to mention both the Earth King and King Priham were positive that no one could conquer their city. And most importantly, both cities fell from the inside, through a coup. And once they infultrated their respective cities, those small number of troops would open the gates for the much larger number of forces for occupation/obliteration. The Trojans had a prince by the name of Hector who was very logical and skeptical about the gods ability to protect their city who ended up being defeated by Achillies, the conflicted Greek warrior who went there to find his glory. On the Greeks side you have Agamemnon ( the King of Greece) who was so obsessed with conquering Troy that when he finally did it, he burnt it to the ground. Then there's Odyssius, a lower king of Greece who was known for being very tactical and resourceful on the battlefield. It was him who thought of and led the troops in the fameous Trojan Horse.
| vampking06 wrote: |
| Hmm... to me, Genghis Khan and his Mongol Empire seem very reminicent of Chin the Conqueror of Kyoshi's time. Actually, now that I think of it, Chin reminds me more of Alexander the Great in the fact that both conquered extreamly large ammounts of land only to be stopped/ killed just short of reaching their goals (Alexander= India, Chin= Kyoshi Island). Here's another that came to mind. Ba Sing Se could be considered an Avatar version of the ancient Greek city of Troy. Inpenatrable walls which no foreign army has ever been able to break (took the Greeks and their superior numbers ten years and they still didnt break them). Both were incredibly prosperous and offered sanctuary for those outside their walls. Not to mention both the Earth King and King Priham were positive that no one could conquer their city. And most importantly, both cities fell from the inside, through a coup. And once they infultrated their respective cities, those small number of troops would open the gates for the much larger number of forces for occupation/obliteration. The Trojans had a prince by the name of Hector who was very logical and skeptical about the gods ability to protect their city who ended up being defeated by Achillies, the conflicted Greek warrior who went there to find his glory. On the Greeks side you have Agamemnon ( the King of Greece) who was so obsessed with conquering Troy that when he finally did it, he burnt it to the ground. Then there's Odyssius, a lower king of Greece who was known for being very tactical and resourceful on the battlefield. It was him who thought of and led the troops in the fameous Trojan Horse. |
Yes, Chin the Conqueror does fit Alexander the Great's mold quite well. Unlike later generals Caesar and Genghis, Alexander the great had no talents outside warfare. Once he had completed his conquests and was now the ruler of the greatest empire in the world, all Alexander was able to do was lounge around drinking himself to death. We didn't see much of Chin the Great's ruling abilities, but he didn't look so good in the brief glimpse we saw of him. Even Ozai seems to have restrained himself from ruling openly as a tyrant, prefering to maintain a benevelant image.
But you're right in Ba Sing Se being like Troy. So, I think that you're saying
Priam is the Earth King
Hector is Aang
Achilles is Zuko
Aggemenmon is Ozai
Odysseus is Azula
