Nickelodeon (ended 2008)
remember??what happend when Azula slid down the side of the drill? sparks flew out...there's metal in her shoes...and I'm certain Zuko wore similar shoes to Azula...so I'm thinking their shows are steel toed and have steel heels too...that's what Zuko used to break the chains...at least that's what I say happend...but still??for Zuko to be able to apply that much force with a kick??is pretty damn amazing...
| zukone wrote: | ||||||||||
Let me also add this.?? If admiral Zhao was superb in fire bending it would be irrelevant.?? Zuko, being the superior FIGHTER (and not necessarily bender) won. |
| zukone wrote: | ||||||||||
Let me also add this.?? If admiral Zhao was superb in fire bending it would be irrelevant.?? Zuko, being the superior FIGHTER (and not necessarily bender) won. |
| misterham wrote: |
| just because you can use swords doesn't make you better. bending>swords. unless you mean bending+sword |
Zuko does use swords + bending.Zuko does everything, but shoot out lightning.He will probably learn how to do lightning in season 3.
| hakeemadams94 wrote: | ||
Zuko does use swords + bending.Zuko does everything, but shoot out lightning.He will probably learn how to do lightning in season 3. |
I don't think Zuko will EVER learn how to use lightning...but now blue fire...
??LARIFYING PREVIOUS STATEMENTS AND FURTHERING ARGUMENTS Have I said Zuko was a poor bender? As I recall, I've said that he didn't need to be that great of a bender to do certain things.?? Maybe something slipped.?? While I haven't stated nor believe it before, I will infer it now whether I believe it or not.?? Also, why would you feel that I was referring to you when I talked of those being blinded by their attachment to Zuko??????? To be honest, the attack on Jeong, and the fact that you also support Zuko as Aang???s teacher lead me to believe you are a fan and you do indeed have a bias for him.?? It may not be true, as you so claim.?? I respect your arguments most of the time because you at least support your ideas.?? (the exception is below.?? By the end, I may just piss you off.)?? I must say that some of what you have stated has come off as Zuko worship. :
??I find Zuko's character to be the most interesting of the main cast, but that doesn't mean I can't view this objectively.
Of course I could say your posts seem like Jeong Jeong worship.
??My belief, which is backed up by Jeong Jeongs own statements, is that creating a small, but powerful fire attack is far more difficult the creating a huge wall of fire.
?? ??Regarding Katara and using her other extremities to bend, I guess skidding on water doesn't count as using your feet.?? However, as compared to Zuko who virtually creates fire, she can't create water.?? These are respective to the nature of those bending elements.?? The best she can do is strap water bottles to her legs.?? Will using water with her feet count then??? Even if she uses her water whip 90% of the time that doesn't make her worse than Zuko.?? Furthermore, I think the percentage is inaccurate. Your claims that Zuko uses bending and fighting side by side does not help the "he's a better bender argument."?? It's an admission that his advantage is in his fighting. : I will clarify what I said regarding Katara as compared to her teacher.?? I said that visually it was comparable.?? I didn't say she was at her master's level.?? Mostly, I try to use qualifying words in my explanations.?? Maybe they slip sometimes.?? This time, I didn't.?? I did qualify the statement and put it into some perspective.
??During SotN, they both used purely bending inbetween the 2 Ice Attacks, no fancy fighting moves, pure bending, and they were completely equal. And this is while Katara was boosted
?? ??JEONG JEONG The biggest problem I have with your post is how you are trying to say that Zhao was a better bender than Jeong. Until now, I've understood your point of view.?? However, I think this argument is CRAZY!?? I know I am not the only sane person about this point. It actually pissed me off. : The visual display as an indicator of ability may become more apparent as more firebenders enter the picture.?? There is quite a ways to go before The Avatar wraps up.
??I didn???t say I thought he was, I said based on your claim that the writers showed off his power, just to have Zhao effortlessly walk through it seems the writers would want to at least make Zhao appear very powerful, just lacking in terms of control.
??He might well be a stronger bender then Jeong Jeong, but be nowhere near the level of control Jeong Jeong has.
?? : The thing that Jeong has done to give him my credit is that huge wall of fire.?? While you want to discredit it, it is significant (more on this later). Jeong has also created a spherical fireball shield without much effort.?? Do you know that is an infinite number of points in all directions, 360 in 360??? But that's not impressive because I've seen loads of people do that.?? Oh wait, I haven't.??
??Except that wall of fire had no power behind it, Zhao walked right through it effortlessly.
And that fire sphere has been done by both Azula (The Chase) and Zuko (To break out of Katara???s Ice Sphere).
?? : He also blocked a fire attack and nulled it. I've seen people deflect or split it, dodge it, and the like, but I haven't seen too many null it. Also, the filler guy explained that Jeong Jeong was a firebending genius.?? Katara mentioned that he was a great fire bending master and he didn???t negate it. I doubt it was because he was prideful.
??I never said he wasn???t a great master, but that doesn???t mean he???s the greatest master.
?? : Jeong had a vision of Avatar telling him to teach the Avatar.?? That means he was fit to teach him because in order to teach Aang, he would have to be good.
??Means little, Aang made it quite clear this might be the only person in the world who could teach him fire bending, seeing as how he needs one who isn???t loyal to Ozai.
?? : Zhao also admitted that Jeong was once so great. He spoke in disgust because he thought the guy was a savage. Zhao's power hungry attitude leads me to believe that because Jeong Jeong philosophy had changed, Zhao thought he was weak.?? Jeong???s bending really wasn't the issue.?? (Zhao said, "Don't worry. My teacher gave up fighting a long time ago.") Fighting is the operative word.?? If Jeong did give up fighting, it also explains why Jeong fled the scene.?? Without causing harm to anyone, he created a full body sized spherical fire shield and somehow vanished.?? He's a bender not a fighter, baby. Everything he did was defensively. It seemed that he didn't feel the need to prove himself on any level to Zhao or anyone.?? Nor did he, at any time, seem intimidated by him.?? The concern he expressed was for the safety of others.
??Or he thought he???d lose, and as such left.
He was quite clearly worried when Zhao showed up and told Katara and the others to flee.
??The writers made it quite clear that even a great master like Jeong Jeong feared Zhao.
?? : I do not hold that Zhao is better than Jeong just because he was able to get through his defenses.?? The purpose of the firewall was to cover Katara. It was mostly diversionary and also perhaps to intimidate. When Zhao got through the fire, he was punching a hole in one small part of the fire.?? In order to be equal, he would have had to have done more than that to the massive wall of fire.???? You should know that if you concentrate force to one spot it will yield better results than trying to break the entire surface. Pressing a spike will punch through a surface more easily than pressing a square peg if the same force is applied.?? The same is true for the wall of fire.?? It was a concentration of force at one point and therefore it was easier for Zhao to get through. Realize it was only one spot.?? The greater ability was in creating the wall, not walking through it.
Zhao didn???t punch a hole, he more or less walked right through it like it wasn???t there.
??Creating a shield like wall for defensive purposes is by no means a greater feat then the other not even being slowed down by it.
?? : May I also note that the fire wall was resting on water at some parts. Observing this I also note that it may not be such a great feat to create fire in water.?? It still may be.?? I do realize under water is different.?? There is no way of knowing if it is the same as creating any other normal fire.?? There is no indication of difficulty level.
??I???d say creating fire under water, with no air, in artic water is far more impressive that creating a wall of fire that floats on water. They???ve created huge fireballs and let them fly around, so having a wall a few inches above water isn???t that impressive.
?? : If I read your argument correctly and understand the underlying content of your point of view it is because Jeong Jeong hadn't gone offensive on Zhao using firebending in an all out brawl (for attacking) that he was weaker at bending (That???s how I believe you came to your erroneous perception).?? Oh yeah, and the whole wall thing.?? However, even if Jeong loses in a fight, he IS the stronger bender.?? Bending is bending.?? Fighting is fighting.?? They are actually two separate things, and Jeong Jeong is not interested in fighting.
??Fire Bending would also involve raw power, not just control.
??Jeong Jeong obviously had a lot of control, but Zhao had more power, which is what the writers were quite clearly trying to show here.
So yes, Jeong Jeong is the better Bender, but not the stronger one.
?? : Whether or not you want to admit it, it is a very strong possibility that the visual reflects the ability level.?? His great display (the sphere I liked best) is the visual description of the fact that he is a firebending genius.?? Zuko???s displays are single lit matches compared to him.?? (Okay maybe that???s an exaggeration, but they don???t come near.)?? His flickering candle attacks, no matter the number, are mostly at a lower level and are mostly linked to his fighting, not his bending. (I don???t buy that the fire daggers are all that great.?? Also, they too, are linked to his fighting.) As I said before, we have more to see of the fire nation and so other large displays of fire from other benders will probably be seen later.
??Lighting 1 candle without having the flame touch anything but the candle in itself is a huge feat in terms of control, lighting 50 at once is a master level feat easily.
??Lighting fire under water and concentrating all that fire into solid matter (knives) takes far more control then creating a huge fire.
Jeong Jeong himself even makes it clear that letting a fire grow huge isn???t impressive, as it???ll do that without the Bender. Containing it is the real feat and Zuko contained it in to the form of actual weapons.
??I???m not saying Jeong Jeong isn???t a great bender, Zhao just had more raw power, but far less skill.
Zuko has shown far more control then either, creating big flames isn???t impressive, containing fire (As Jeong Jeong said) is far more impressive.
?? : Lastly, because I contend that Zhao isn't at all better than Jeong, Zuko's beating Zhao does not make him a better bender than Jeong Jeong. Your ridiculously simplistic equation holds no merit.
??The Equation is based on your own saying, namely the writers wanting to show Jeong Jeong as powerful, then showing Zhao as an even greater threat by walking right through his defense.
| Eman5805 wrote: | ||||
I don't think Zuko will EVER learn how to use lightning...but now blue fire... |
With a great teacher like iroh he will learn it.
| zukone wrote: |
| You could say that, but I am not at all attached to Jeong Jeong. I concede on the points where I was mistaken. In parts, I think there are quite a few flaws to Jeong that make him unlikable. I like Zuko better than Jeong, but I haven't crossed over into nutty-bo-bo land because of it. Even if the perception is that Zuko is strong, there is no way he is better than Jeong. Your arguments that Zuko is a better bender than Katara are more believable, though I may disagree. I went off in a rant because I think this comparison is silly. It discredits you. Control is what makes the better bender and he created a wall which he controlled. He didn't let the fire grow huge as you insinuate. Nor was it just a big random blast he let take over(like Zhao did). He was able to CREATE and CONTROL a huge amount of fire. I doubt that being able to control a palm sized fireball is comparable to that. Jeong expresses more control over his bending than Zhao. Period. While Jeong was teaching Aang, the first principle he taught after breathing was containing fire. If Zhao pushed the fire away, it could have been nothing more than a basic principle in use. Because he was Jeong's student, it was probably one of the earlier principles he learned. My whole force applied to one spot thing still stands. This is a Physics principle. How can you discount that so readily? It doesn't even make sense. As I said before, Jeong's concern was for others. Also it is clear that he had become a pacifist. He wasn't interested in fighting. Zhao was a threat because he was the antagonist (on the offence), but he wasn't greater than Jeong. Furthermore, Zhao's lack of control adds to the argument as to why Zuko was able to beat him. Aang was able to beat him by allowing him to destroy his own ship. It's not like Aang went toe to toe with him on the offensive. Therefore, Zuko's beating him may have little to do with Zuko's bending ability and more to do with Zhao's lack of fighting ability. Yes the bending helped. However, I am not convinced that Zhao, however great he was, was massively good to begin with. The whole Zuko>Zhao>Jeong is simplistic because Zhao is the inferior fighter and Jeong is a pacifist. There was no real confrontation between Jeong and Zhao. Rock, paper, scissors. Although, I don't believe that Zhao compares to Jeong, a master, in the bending facet. If you say it is based on my own writing, you have misunderstood me. I was talking about the display in sheer volume in elemental control as an indicator of strength in the element. I am not saying that there aren't any exceptions to the rule. It was an observation. Avatar Roku was the one who told him to teach the Avatar. He has to be good enough to do it. Just because he might have been the only one who was available to teach him doesn't mean he wasn't well qualified. You make it seem like just anyone could teach the Avatar. He is a master. Confirmed. I say he is ------ well qualified. There is NO INDICATION or CONFIRMATION by the WRITERS that ZUKO is a MASTER or that he has reached master status. Side note (If Zuko was using firebreath or whatever under water, really, he was already in use of his element. Creating a fire still might not have been that great of a feat. If it is, I don't care, (you really can't make me care). It doesn't make him that great and it's only impressive to me because it displays his survival instincts.) |
He is a great bender and a great fighter.Mix them two together and u get the best warrior.Katara can only bend, but when lee took her power she is useless little girl.Even if u take Zuko bending away he will still oewn u.
| zukone wrote: |
| Uh, my main point in that quote was that Zuko does not compare to Jeong. If you read any of my previous posts, I say that Zuko is an excellent physical fighter. |
yeah and a great bender.
| hakeemadams94 wrote: | ||
yeah and a great bender. |
| zukone wrote: | ||||
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Just admit it already.All he needs to do know is listen to iroh so he could learn how to control or redirect lightning.
