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Katara vs Zuko

  • Avatar of pmgandrews

    pmgandrews

    [161]Oct 8, 2006
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    zukone wrote:
    When looking at the bending, the visual display of element vs the bender might also give an indication of who is the better bender. In other words when someone bends, what do you see? Do you see the person, or do you see the bending. The writers know what they are doing. The visual is linked intrinsically to the plot and speaks what words don't.


    Funny you mention that.

    Jeong Jeong created a wall of Fire to stop Zhao. Which would count as a pretty big display of power.

    Zhao walked right through it effortlessly, an even greater display of control over fire.

    Zuko then owned his sorry ass in SotN, including countering and smacking away is fire attacks.

    Meaning Zuko's Bending Power > Zhao > Jeong Jeong

    :
    For Zuko, I always see him and his fighting. I almost feel as if the bending is not as important. For Jeong Jeong, a true master, I see the fire and his bond with it so apparently. His displays were incredible. For Katara, even excluding her boost in the north, I always see the bending. I can say it was comparable, visually, to her master's. (I am not referring to power and true mastery. I'll leave the argument of whether or not she is a master behind.)


    What exactly did Jeong Jeong do to deserve such credit, make the flames on candles turn big and create a wall of fire, thats about all he's done.

    None of this comes close to Zuko's display of actually creating fire while under water and creating solid knives. These 2 things require far more control and skill then creating huge fireballs.

    And saying Katara comes within a fraction of her masters bending level is already giving her too much credit, she has done half the tricks he showed in their match, and then there was also the fact that he wasn't even serious at the time.

    :
    While we talk about versatility and we can create a list for both, even if the numbers are lob-sided, Katara's displays have been more impressive. Furthermore, there is no indication as to which level each bending technique is save for some. So, if one has more techniques than another it does not necessarily mean that he or she is the better bender. The scope and range of Katara's bending is farther than Zuko's WITHOUT a boost. Finally, the amount she bends in comparison to Zuko also appears to be more. That may just be the nature of fire and water. However, in this analysis, it seems significant.


    Katara spends 90% of fights using the Water whip, with the occasional ice and shield here and there. And of course she spends more of the fight bending, she can't fight without it, she quite literally stated she felt completed helpless last time she lost her bending. Zuko is a warrior, he's been trained not to solely rely on his bending, he's been trained to use the two side by side in fights, just like Aang is shown to do.

    :
    It just seems apparent to me, someone who is not attached more to one character over the other, who the better bender is. There is no bias. I believe that most, I will not say all, people who argue that Zuko is the better bender, have been clouded by their love for the character. Of course, and I don't know how many times I will say this, I am talking about bending and bending alone. I am not talking about fighting. Zuko is, by far, the better overall fighter.


    I'm not attached more to any charater, I'm saying he has some very impressive feats under his belt that most tend to ignore when saying he's a poor bender.

    Funny part is also that Zuko has learned to use his feet and even his nose to bend, like Aang and Toph,yet Katara is completely dependant on her hands, as shown by Mai pinning her arms to a tree and leaving her helpless.
    I sincerly doubt water is the only form that can only be done with your arms.


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  • Avatar of zachman9393

    zachman9393

    [162]Oct 8, 2006
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    I think Zuko and Katara are pretty close in terms of fighting ability.?? And Zhao just sucked.?? Why? you ask??? Simple: Though Zhao has incredible raw Bending power, he has no control and no versatality.?? You saw how he destroyed his own fleet in "The Deserter".?? Zhao does nothing but shoot huge balls of fire.????Zuko knows how to be versatile, throwing different kicks and punches, and breaking his opponent's stance.?? And Zuko knows how to be patient and have control, which, as Jeong Jeong said, Zhao never figured out.?? Zuko beat Zhao in an Agni-Kai, for God's sake!!!?? Zuko is much better as a firbender.?? BTW I think, personally, that Iroh is a better fighter than Azula or possibly even Ozai.?? He's the only one who knows how to re-direct lightning: he lloks beyond his own element, like he said, and incorperates other Bendign styles into his own.?? He and Zuko together beat of Azula and all her cronies when she tried to capture them!!?? But back onto the subject of Zuko and Katara.

    Katara has beaten Zuko amny times in the past, but those were times when Zuko was impatient, thus forgetting his basics, and was emotionally and physicaly stressed.?? I think we can safely say both Katara and Zuko are just a few steps short of beign Masters- we've seen them both do some pretty amazing things.?? I believe, that in an all-out match, it would be an equal chance of either winning.?? Katara has an advatage over his fire with her water, but Zuko has an advantage if she doesn't have much water or if he can break her rhythm.?? They're both extremely good- Katara has made some gigantic waves and towers of water, and has even made up some of her own moves, such as flinging ice disks like she did in "The Waterbending Master".?? Zuko has a seemingly special ability- the "Breath of fire", which it seems only some Firebenders have.?? He also knows how to bend lightning, even if he has never tried it, and seems pretty good at finding opponent's weak spots.?? It's an all-out battle of luck between these two.

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  • Avatar of metalcurtainrod

    metalcurtainrod

    [163]Oct 8, 2006
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    I'm not biased towards Zuko. Every time I've said he was a better bender than Katara, I've always listed reasons.
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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [164]Oct 8, 2006
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    i read somewhere that waterbenders are completely dependent on their arms to bend water, and that the only time that a waterbender didn't bend water with their arms was when katara froze her own feet in "the waterbending master"

    and katara barely uses the water whip when she fights

    and being proficient at combat with weaponry does not give a bender an advantage during a fight

    what exactly is the fire breath?
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  • Avatar of etherfreeze

    etherfreeze

    [165]Oct 8, 2006
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    I agree that Katara and Zuko are fairly equal in their bending abilities - it all depends on the setting. Katara beat Zuko at the North Pole when either it was nightime, or she was surrounded by snow. Zuko had more of a chance when the sun rose. Neither of them are masters, but they are both very skilled.

    However - as an overall fighter, Zuko is probably better than Katara considering he is a master of the dual swords. I hope they have more bouts in episodes to come so we can see who is truly better

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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [166]Oct 8, 2006
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    just because you can use swords doesn't make you better. bending>swords. unless you mean bending+sword
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  • Avatar of pmgandrews

    pmgandrews

    [167]Oct 8, 2006
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    misterham wrote:
    i read somewhere that waterbenders are completely dependent on their arms to bend water, and that the only time that a waterbender didn't bend water with their arms was when katara froze her own feet in "the waterbending master"

    and katara barely uses the water whip when she fights

    and being proficient at combat with weaponry does not give a bender an advantage during a fight

    what exactly is the fire breath?




    Doesn't the fact that she accidently bended water without her hands prove its possible.

    And if a novice with virtually no experience can do so by accident, then a master can definitely control water with more then just his hands.

    Aang, Zuko and Toph have all shown to be able to bend with multiple parts of their body.

    Zuko has spit fire (granted its to show he's angry), fired steam from his nose and quite often used his legs and feet to create fireballs.


    Aang has often blown a hurrican and sent out powerful airblasts with his kicks.


    Toph has quite often controlled rocks by stomping the ground.


    Katara has shown to be completely helpless without her arms


    Katara uses almost nothing else but the water whip when she fights, look at more or less every fight she's in in Season 2.
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  • Avatar of whiteforest

    whiteforest

    [168]Oct 8, 2006
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    misterham wrote:
    just because you can use swords doesn't make you better. bending>swords. unless you mean bending+sword


    Yes, bending is more useful/powerful than just having weaponry or swords, but if you're both a skilled bender and sword fighter, it definately gives you an advantage.
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  • Avatar of etherfreeze

    etherfreeze

    [169]Oct 8, 2006
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    misterham wrote:
    just because you can use swords doesn't make you better. bending>swords. unless you mean bending+sword


    i was just saying that Zuko doesn't only have bending under his belt in a fight. Besides Bending isn't always > weapons. In many episodes weapons beat bending
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  • Avatar of Herbert0

    Herbert0

    [170]Oct 8, 2006
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    She used her breath to freeze water though she used her hands as guidance.
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  • Avatar of Trollwrangler

    Trollwrangler

    [171]Oct 8, 2006
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    In answer to all this talk of no waterbending without hands, it is certainly possible. Wanna know why no one uses their feet? Waterbending is all about wrist movements, as shown in The Waterbending Scroll. How many people can control their ankles as well as their wrists? Not many.

    I have also changed my mind about who would win. I have just realized that Zuko has made some fights very difficult with Aang. Zuko would probably win in a straight up match. His progression as a bender went way faster when he started fighting the Avatar. It's like he found out how weak he was, so it gave him the drive to become much more powerful.

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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [172]Oct 8, 2006
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    but katara's progression went 10000000x faster than zukos starting from between episode 18 and 19. and she's still progressing while zuko barely is. she can bend all she wants but zuko can't or he'll get caught. the exception is "tales of ba sing se"
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  • Avatar of etherfreeze

    etherfreeze

    [173]Oct 8, 2006
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    misterham wrote:
    but katara's progression went 10000000x faster than zukos starting from between episode 18 and 19. and she's still progressing while zuko barely is. she can bend all she wants but zuko can't or he'll get caught. the exception is "tales of ba sing se"


    I was surprised that he risked lightning those lanterns. He was the one who scolded his uncle for heating his tea, a much less noticeable action.
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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [174]Oct 8, 2006
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    1. The first steps between novice and initiate are the fastest.

    2. Bending with weapons enchances its power. It states that the staff makes aangs airbening more powerful, likewise with the fan. 3. Zuko has had more problem with his own control than his firebending skills. Recently especially with the lanterns in tales of Ba Sing Se, he has shown precision unlike any other. 4. He has offense, he has ninja skills, he has swords, he has unarmed combat, he has his firebending.

    5. Katara only won under circumstances that pretty much favored her in every way.

    6. Katara is regularly spanked by (insert villian here). including but not limited to Tai Lee, Random Earth Kingdom generals, Mai and the Dai Li.
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  • Avatar of Trollwrangler

    Trollwrangler

    [175]Oct 8, 2006
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    You might say the "random Earth Kingdom generals" were unfair in their advantage of so much earth, while Katara had little water.
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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [176]Oct 8, 2006
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    katara easily pwned zuko when conditions favored her. zuko easily beat katara when conditions favored him. they are equal

    mai beat her when she was sleepy and retardedly put her arms in front of a tree, tai lee beat her when she wasn't suspecting it (2 vs 1 unfair), and katara had like 300 mL of water against an earth king with earth everywhere. and who's dai li?

    pipboy- your #4: "he has offense" doesn't count. katara has waterbending which cancels out "he has firebending", he NEVER showed any ninja skills other than in the episode "blue spirit", and when did he ever demonstrate unarmed combat? flame daggers do not count. so basically, the only advantage he has over her is swords
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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [177]Oct 8, 2006
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    I might also say that with an entire north pole of water and a full moon at her back katara had an unfair advantage.

    Of course the fact that Zuko generates his element without need for its natural presence is yet another advantage.

    Zuko fights unarmed against the Earth kingdom soldiers in Zuko alone.???? He half draws his sword onthe first.?? Facepalms the second and kicks the spear of the third in two.

    Zuko demonstrates further ninja skills in the serpents pass with jet.

    Just because he only shows a talent once doesn't mean he doesn't possess it.???? And he has shown it more than once.
    Edited on 10/08/2006 3:47pm
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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [178]Oct 8, 2006
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    true, zuko fights 2 of them unsrmed, but the first 3 didn't really count as worriors. they're worse than sokka

    and for serpent's pass, i meant combat-wise, not stack-bowls-on top-of-each-other-wise

    he didn't show ninja skills with his fight with azula, katara, or the earthbenders that wanted to smash his uncles hands
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    Trollwrangler

    [179]Oct 8, 2006
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    misterham wrote:
    true, zuko fights 2 of them unsrmed, but the first 3 didn't really count as worriors. they're worse than sokka :

    That better not have been a shot at Sokka.

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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [180]Oct 8, 2006
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    First a clarification. When I say ninja skills I don't mean naruto. I mean skill at infiltration and stealth. Skills that frankly haven't been of all that much use to him in his fights with azula and the avatar. He has them though and if say the fight took place in any terrain where zuko could take cover these skills would give him the edge.

    The fact that he can kick a spear in two and break it in half is alone impressive. He deflected a boulder with just a kick that weighed better than 200 pounds in The Spirit World, broke steel with his feet, no firebening involved in that same episode.
    Edited on 10/08/2006 4:00pm
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