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Katara vs Zuko

  • Avatar of etherfreeze

    etherfreeze

    [181]Oct 8, 2006
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    I had a teacher named Mr. Hamm hahaha anyway on topic - Katara's skill at waterbending increases exponentially every episode. It seems like she has more and more control over her powers as the show progresses. Usually when she's fighting, she only has a tiny pouchfull of water which is unfair when earthbenders have the whole earth or firebenders can geneate fire themselves. Whatever the case - neither Katara nor Zuko is superior, it's all situational.
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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [182]Oct 8, 2006
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    All combat is situational. A man with a knife can beat a man with a gun. That being said a gun is a better option most of the time. The 'situation' is that ZUko in about 90% of fights they can have is the better choice.
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    Trollwrangler

    [183]Oct 8, 2006
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    Do you know why this conversation is going nowhere? Because everyone but firebenders need an element to bend.??Think about it, fire is not essential to human life, so therefore it's mostly destructive. This is why it's the Fire Nation that is unbalancing the world. Zuko will almost always get the drop on Katara, just because you can't remove fire without it starting first.

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    ThePipBoy

    [184]Oct 8, 2006
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    Fire is essential to life as the Fusion Furnace that is the sun is the source of all life on our planet. PLus The debate is getting loads of places, as each person who arrives brings something new to the table in terms of their opinion, then leaves once they can no longer support their own arguements.
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    Trollwrangler

    [185]Oct 8, 2006
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    Okay, okay, I may have been a little extreme. But fire needs to consume something to continue, unlike any other element.

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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [186]Oct 8, 2006
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    True. Because its an event not a thing.
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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [187]Oct 8, 2006
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    ThePipBoy wrote:

    The fact that he can kick a spear in two and break it in half is alone impressive. He deflected a boulder with just a kick that weighed better than 200 pounds in The Spirit World, broke steel with his feet, no firebening involved in that same episode.

    what episode did he deflect the 200 lbs boulder? and i think when he broke the steel it was more of his shoes than his heels, but i'll have to admit he still would need sexy leg muscles to do that
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  • Avatar of Trollwrangler

    Trollwrangler

    [188]Oct 8, 2006
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    It was called "The Spirit World, part 1/ Winter Solstice", and I don't think that rock was really that heavy. Even if it was, it was just hovering, it wouldn't be that hard for a martial artist to knock away.
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  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [189]Oct 8, 2006
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    pmgandrews wrote:
    Quote on pg 17


    CLARIFYING PREVIOUS STATEMENTS AND FURTHERING ARGUMENTS
    Have I said Zuko was a poor bender? As I recall, I've said that he didn't need to be that great of a bender to do certain things. Maybe something slipped. While I haven't stated nor believe it before, I will infer it now whether I believe it or not.

    Also, why would you feel that I was referring to you when I talked of those being blinded by their attachment to Zuko? To be honest, the attack on Jeong, and the fact that you also support Zuko as Aang???s teacher lead me to believe you are a fan and you do indeed have a bias for him. It may not be true, as you so claim. I respect your arguments most of the time because you at least support your ideas. (the exception is below. By the end, I may just piss you off.) I must say that some of what you have stated has come off as Zuko worship.

    I will clarify what I said regarding Katara as compared to her teacher. I said that visually it was comparable. I didn't say she was at her master's level. Mostly, I try to use qualifying words in my explanations. Maybe they slip sometimes. This time, I didn't. I did qualify the statement and put it into some perspective.

    Regarding Katara and using her other extremities to bend, I guess skidding on water doesn't count as using your feet. However, as compared to Zuko who virtually creates fire, she can't create water. These are respective to the nature of those bending elements. The best she can do is strap water bottles to her legs. Will using water with her feet count then? Even if she uses her water whip 90% of the time that doesn't make her worse than Zuko. Furthermore, I think the percentage is inaccurate. Your claims that Zuko uses bending and fighting side by side does not help the "he's a better bender argument." It's an admission that his advantage is in his fighting.

    The visual display as an indicator of ability may become more apparent as more firebenders enter the picture. There is quite a ways to go before The Avatar wraps up.

    JEONG JEONG
    The biggest problem I have with your post is how you are trying to say that Zhao was a better bender than Jeong. Until now, I've understood your point of view. However, I think this argument is CRAZY! I know I am not the only sane person about this point. It actually pissed me off.

    The thing that Jeong has done to give him my credit is that huge wall of fire. While you want to discredit it, it is significant (more on this later). Jeong has also created a spherical fireball shield without much effort. Do you know that is an infinite number of points in all directions, 360 in 360? But that's not impressive because I've seen loads of people do that. Oh wait, I haven't. He also blocked a fire attack and nulled it. I've seen people deflect or split it, dodge it, and the like, but I haven't seen too many null it. Also, the filler guy explained that Jeong Jeong was a firebending genius. Katara mentioned that he was a great fire bending master and he didn???t negate it. I doubt it was because he was prideful. Jeong had a vision of Avatar telling him to teach the Avatar. That means he was fit to teach him because in order to teach Aang, he would have to be good.

    Zhao also admitted that Jeong was once so great. He spoke in disgust because he thought the guy was a savage. Zhao's power hungry attitude leads me to believe that because Jeong Jeong philosophy had changed, Zhao thought he was weak. Jeong???s bending really wasn't the issue. (Zhao said, "Don't worry. My teacher gave up fighting a long time ago.") Fighting is the operative word. If Jeong did give up fighting, it also explains why Jeong fled the scene. Without causing harm to anyone, he created a full body sized spherical fire shield and somehow vanished. He's a bender not a fighter, baby. Everything he did was defensively. It seemed that he didn't feel the need to prove himself on any level to Zhao or anyone. Nor did he, at any time, seem intimidated by him. The concern he expressed was for the safety of others.

    I do not hold that Zhao is better than Jeong just because he was able to get through his defenses. The purpose of the firewall was to cover Katara. It was mostly diversionary and also perhaps to intimidate. When Zhao got through the fire, he was punching a hole in one small part of the fire. In order to be equal, he would have had to have done more than that to the massive wall of fire. You should know that if you concentrate force to one spot it will yield better results than trying to break the entire surface. Pressing a spike will punch through a surface more easily than pressing a square peg if the same force is applied. The same is true for the wall of fire. It was a concentration of force at one point and therefore it was easier for Zhao to get through. Realize it was only one spot. The greater ability was in creating the wall, not walking through it.

    May I also note that the fire wall was resting on water at some parts. Observing this I also note that it may not be such a great feat to create fire in water. It still may be. I do realize under water is different. There is no way of knowing if it is the same as creating any other normal fire. There is no indication of difficulty level.

    If I read your argument correctly and understand the underlying content of your point of view it is because Jeong Jeong hadn't gone offensive on Zhao using firebending in an all out brawl (for attacking) that he was weaker at bending (That???s how I believe you came to your erroneous perception). Oh yeah, and the whole wall thing. However, even if Jeong loses in a fight, he IS the stronger bender. Bending is bending. Fighting is fighting. They are actually two separate things, and Jeong Jeong is not interested in fighting.

    Whether or not you want to admit it, it is a very strong possibility that the visual reflects the ability level. His great display (the sphere I liked best) is the visual description of the fact that he is a firebending genius. Zuko???s displays are single lit matches compared to him. (Okay maybe that???s an exaggeration, but they don???t come near.) His flickering candle attacks, no matter the number, are mostly at a lower level and are mostly linked to his fighting, not his bending. (I don???t buy that the fire daggers are all that great. Also, they too, are linked to his fighting.) As I said before, we have more to see of the fire nation and so other large displays of fire from other benders will probably be seen later.

    Lastly, because I contend that Zhao isn't at all better than Jeong, Zuko's beating Zhao does not make him a better bender than Jeong Jeong. Your ridiculously simplistic equation holds no merit.
    Edited on 10/08/2006 4:51pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [190]Oct 8, 2006
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    Stone is REALLY HEAVY. The average weight of a chunk of limestone (a light stone) that size (2ft radius) is somewhere in the vicinity of 2386 pounds. Or a metric ton. Me saying 200 pounds is so incredibly generous that it borders of stupidity.

    To Zukone, just to clarify, what he said was that if you are going to consider.???? Meaning that Zhao being better than Jeong Jeong was only if you were to use simplistic comparisions.??
    Edited on 10/08/2006 4:53pm
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  • Avatar of Trollwrangler

    Trollwrangler

    [191]Oct 8, 2006
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    Bravo(slow, erratic clapping ensues).

    This is for both of you.

    Edited on 10/08/2006 4:53pm
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    misterham

    [192]Oct 8, 2006
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    the "stones" seemed more like dirt to me. if a small metal chain was strong enough to break it into tiny pieces, i highly doubt it's any type of stone
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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [193]Oct 8, 2006
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    Even if you are using dense dirt instead of stone then the weight is going to be a minimum 1632 pounds. Which while not a metric ton is still way freaking heavy. Furthmore there is not a martial artist in the world that can shatter STEEL shackles of that size with a kick. It would take a 30 pound sledgehammer MULTIPLE blows to break that or a chisel wedge. If zuko were to really haul off and hit someone with a blow like that the effect would be the utter and instantaneous mutliation of whatever body part got hit.
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    misterham

    [194]Oct 8, 2006
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    it's most likely giant dirt clumps that weigh 70 pounds max

    metal in that show seems pretty weak. aang froze a lock and shattered it with his wooden staff :/
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  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [195]Oct 8, 2006
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    ThePipBoy wrote:
    Stone is REALLY HEAVY. The average weight of a chunk of limestone (a light stone) that size (2ft radius) is somewhere in the vicinity of 2386 pounds. Or a metric ton. Me saying 200 pounds is so incredibly generous that it borders of stupidity.

    To Zukone, just to clarify, what he said was that if you are going to consider. Meaning that Zhao being better than Jeong Jeong was only if you were to use simplistic comparisions.


    I thought he expressed that Zhao showed more control by breaking through the wall as a definitive statement of his greater strength over Jeung. He didn't say "if you consider." If that was the case, it wasn't clear and would have directed my reply differently. The indication from another of his posts on another thread causes me to doubt that.
    pgmandrews wrote:
    Zuko has proven himself to be superior to Jeong Jeong in terms of skill already. He's defeaten Zhao twice, Yet Jeong Jeong was clearly afraid he'd lose a fight against Zhao when he arrived.
    So, uh, you might see why I delineated my argument the way I did.

    When I expressed my opinion, I said it MIGHT be an indicator in the beginning and then I continued to express why I thought that way. I also presented a flaw of the reasoning. Yeah, I played it down, but most don't even express an arguments weaknesses. It is not that I think it is the strongest argument, but I do believe that it could have been relevant.

    It was very nice of you to try and defend your buddy. I hope you understand why I posted the way I did.
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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [196]Oct 8, 2006
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    If that dirt was as loose as you say then there is no way it was the slightest threat to Iroh's hands. For that stone to weigh 70 pounds it would have to weigh about 2-5 pounds per cubic foot. Do you know what weights that much? A well stuffed pillow or a roll of quarters.

    Even at a miserable 90 pounds a cubic foot, the density of chalk. That boulder weighs better than a thousand pounds. Poorly forged Steel/iron is highly vulnerable to breaking along stress points at low temperatures. Though this not withstanding breaking it with your OWN FEET, is a superhuman combat feat no matter how poorly forged it is.

    Zukone I interpreted it as more a self indictment. I also would have pointed out that if one is creating a barrier that covers an entire river the flame will be spread quite thin.
    Edited on 10/08/2006 5:23pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [197]Oct 8, 2006
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    how about you try freezing a chain and breaking it with a wooden stick

    and again, if iroh was able to break the "stones/dense dirt" into rubble with that small chain, they could not be very strong
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    ThePipBoy

    [198]Oct 8, 2006
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    Do you know how dense metals are? Really freaking dense is not even a slightest bit accurate. Steel is 63,000 kilograms per cubic meter. Thats about 500 pounds per cubic foot. Continueing that vein it also has self adhesion that is thousands of time that of stone. Wood is an incredible substance that can exceed metal in many ways. Bone another biological substance has greater compression to weight than steel. But you know what. I have two things on my side. First I can say that the blowing was chilling the metal and the ice was forming from the atmosphere in which case the metal would have been around 35?? K or -230 degrees celcius. Second the umbral vortex of an air bended staff head renders it capable of breaking stone, and thus most likely the air is rendered into a psuedo-liquid state and is harder than the substance it is composed of by factors of a thousands. Airbenders have alread been shown to manipulate air density.
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    misterham

    [199]Oct 8, 2006
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    metal is dense. so what? do you honestly really believe that a small metal chain can break a large rock into bits?

    i highly doubt that aang froze that metal to 35K, and i dunno what that pseudo-liquid stuff is, but he would probably have to do it to his whole staff instead of just the head. a tool is only as strong as it's weakest point, and in "bitter work" aang said that his wooden staff was delicate
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    ThePipBoy

    [200]Oct 8, 2006
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    Airbenders can manipualte air pressure, which is for all practical intents and purposes that which both controls the maximum speed of terrestrial objects and a whole host of other things.

    Air can punch through a human body like a bubble of soap if it has enough pressure/density. A wooden staff that is surrounded by a sheath of superdense air would be effectively harder than stone, which if applied to cold metal would break right through. The fact that you doubt that it was at 35K doesn't prohibit it. If it leads to increased suspension of disbelief then it is more likely. His staff is delicate, if an earthbender is using it to crack nuts, but in his hands it can send out shockwaves that crack metal. Do you know how much stone you can break with a pickaxe?
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