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Aang Ain't White?

  • Avatar of Chesis

    Chesis

    [61]Jan 4, 2009
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    gilvatar wrote:
    I have a question. If the characters live in a world where there is no Asia or Africa or Europe or Americae ect. how can we define them in terms of our nationalities in our world?
    We can because that's what Mike and Bryan did. They were really deliberate about choosing Asian and inigenous cultures only, and the four nations match up very closely with real-world cultures. It's pretty clear that the Air Nomads are based on Tibetan and Shaolin monks, the Water tribe is Inuit with some Pacific Islander, The Earth Kingdom is Qing dynasty China with some Korean, and the Fire nation is Japan and Tang dynasty China. Do some Googling and see for yourself.


    This isn't to say that the movie absolutely has to stick with these influences, but it's also not right to say that these distinctions weren't made in the first place.

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    ThisCrazyGuy

    [62]Jan 4, 2009
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    MarryLarry wrote:

    Chesis wrote:
    RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

    Yep. Capslock = cruise control to cool. Anyway, you're kind of acting like one of those self-hating, attention-seeking weeaboo/azns I mentioned earlier who's just looking to stir things up. So unless you can somehow manage to show me some credentials that proves your so-called professionality at movie and casting racism, I'm going to go ahead and call BS. And no, I'm not talking about the Blue Spirit. And "Rush Hour", "Letters from Iwo Jima", and "Forbidden Kingdom" weren't B-movies. That's just some of many, but I don't feel like making a long list of movies that will ultimately fail to change your mind.

    And for what it's worth, I might have agreed with the potential racism had the producer been white, but seeing as how he's not, you're going to have to blame crapping casting talent instead.

    To sum up my unimportant opinion that won't change anything: would I have liked to see a multi-ethnic cast? Sure. Am I going to vehemently and "righteously" boycott this movie simply because all the known actors appear to be white? No. Am I blaming this upset on racism and planning to blog about it to my list of like-minded friends? He11 no.

    P.S. to that crazy guy (see what I did there). Thank you for confirming my suspicions that you've only been reading bits-and-pieces of my posts, seeing as how you failed to read that asterick explaining that I wasn't explicitly referring to you. If you thought I was blantantly offending you personally, I am sincerely not sorry.

    How is Chesis sounding like he is looking to stir things up? Being offended by the cast of this movie is a perfectly understandible thing...
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  • Avatar of Chesis

    Chesis

    [63]Jan 4, 2009
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    MarryLarry wrote:

    "Rush Hour", "Letters from Iwo Jima", and "Forbidden Kingdom" weren't B-movies.

    Rush Hour I'll give you, though Jackie Chan is clearly a foreigner with a limited grasp of English. Not exactly a great example of Asian-American inclusiveness. "Forbidden Kigdom" had a white kid as the lead - to the studio's credit, they did seem to realize they'd screwed up and ran an ad campaign that did everything they could to hide him. As for "Letters from Iwo Jima," well, do you know anyone who actually watched that movie? It only got made because Clint Eastwood (may he live forever) financed and produced it himself.
    MarryLarry wrote:
    And for what it's worth, I might have agreed with the potential racism had the producer been white, but seeing as how he's not, you're going to have to blame crapping casting talent instead.
    The producers *are* white. Frank Marshall and Kathleen Kennedy at Paramount. Shyamalan was only hired to direct, and considering his reputation lately, it wouldn't surprise me at all of he didn't have enough clout left to influence the casting process.

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  • Avatar of Chesis

    Chesis

    [64]Jan 4, 2009
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    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:
    How is Chesis sounding like he is looking to stir things up? Being offended by the cast of this movie is a perfectly understandible thing...


    Thanks man. And I'm a chick.
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    ThisCrazyGuy

    [65]Jan 4, 2009
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    Chesis wrote:
    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:
    How is Chesis sounding like he is looking to stir things up? Being offended by the cast of this movie is a perfectly understandible thing...


    Thanks man. And I'm a chick.
    That's okay, I completely agree with what you are saying. Sorry for mistaking your gender!
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  • Avatar of MarryLarry

    MarryLarry

    [66]Jan 4, 2009
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    Chesis wrote:
    MarryLarry wrote:
    And for what it's worth, I might have agreed with the potential racism had the producer been white, but seeing as how he's not, you're going to have to blame crapping casting talent instead.
    The producers *are* white. Frank Marshall and Kathleen Kennedy at Paramount. Shyamalan was only hired to direct, and considering his reputation lately, it wouldn't surprise me at all of he didn't have enough clout left to influence the casting process.

    Sorry to throw a wrench in your point, but Night is one of the producers, as well as the director and screenwriter. He's in charge of pretty much every aspect of the development process since he's the one who came up with the idea for Avatar to be a movie and presented it to Nick. Not to mention Mike and Bryan are pretty much his go to guys since both said they were heavily involved in the movie.

    If any one of those 3 ever comes out to publicly admit or even hint at the possibility that they were hoodwinked by some Paramount corporate goon, then I'll submit to your claims of the movie being racist and even apologise (something I rarely do). Until then I find such claims to be unfounded.

    And just so I'm abundantly clear: I'm not loving the current cast either. I'm just saying throwing out words like racism to support your hatred is a little extreme. Nothing personal.

    That's the end of my involvement in this debate that will more than likely never end, unless of course one side euthanizes the other. My advice is bring chainsaws since flames don't seem to work on the interweb. They only seem to make things grow out of proportion.

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  • Avatar of gilvatar

    gilvatar

    [67]Jan 4, 2009
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    Chesis wrote:

    gilvatar wrote:
    I have a question. If the characters live in a world where there is no Asia or Africa or Europe or Americae ect. how can we define them in terms of our nationalities in our world?
    We can because that's what Mike and Bryan did. They were really deliberate about choosing Asian and inigenous cultures only, and the four nations match up very closely with real-world cultures. It's pretty clear that the Air Nomads are based on Tibetan and Shaolin monks, the Water tribe is Inuit with some Pacific Islander, The Earth Kingdom is Qing dynasty China with some Korean, and the Fire nation is Japan and Tang dynasty China. Do some Googling and see for yourself.


    This isn't to say that the movie absolutely has to stick with these influences, but it's also not right to say that these distinctions weren't made in the first place.

    I never said there weren't asian influences. I'm saying that technically, if you COMPLETELY seperate our world from the avatar world, the characters can't be asian because there is no asia. They're not any race from our world. The characters are just people. BTW I don't appreciate you being all judy-attitudey to me. I'm just pointing out that to be asian, your ancestors have to be born in Asia. The character's ancestors weren't born in Asia. They were born in the firenation or the earth kingdom, ect.
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    _Flutterlight_

    [68]Jan 4, 2009
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    Chesis wrote:
    Falcondude123 wrote:

    Sokka and Katara are pretty clearly a slight bit darker than Aang, Zuko or Toph. Do I think these white kids can pull Katara and Sokka off? Absolutely, since other members of the water-tribe were very white, and it was just randomn coincidence that they were so much tanner in the show.

    We weren't watching the same show if you think the members of the water tribes were white.

    What show were you watching? Hamma in "the Puppet Master" has more pale skin than Aang does. The guy who Yue was engaged to was white. So was Bato, and Katara and Sokka's father. Actually, it's just a few members of the Northern Water Tribe who are darker skined, + Katara and Sokka. (But they're a quarter Northern Water Tribe anyway.)

    Chesis wrote:
    They shouldn't. By why is it okay that everyone in a cast that's supposed to be made up of different ethnicities white? Seriously, if you look at other shows and movies, you see diverse casts all the time. This is what they pay casting directors to do, to find kids that are Latino and black and Asian and Native American to reflect real life. And really, Avatar has been Asian from day one. It's been marketed as Asian by Nickelodeon, the overwhelming majority of the influences are Asian and Inuit. I mean, if you take out all the Asian stuff from Avatar, what do you have left? A bunch of white kids throwing buckets of water and rocks at each other, that's what.

    You're wrong. Look at the Fire Nation. Their islands were based off of the Netherlands. That's not asian. Are Platapi Asian? No, they're from Australia. Bosco was a BROWN BEAR. Brown Bears aren't native to Asia. Lemurs are only found on Madagascar, and I don't remember that being part of asia.

    What about Katara's blue eyes. I do not know ONE asian or inuit with blue eyes. I do not know any asians or inuits with brown wavy hair either. Or what about Zuko and Mai dating each other? If the Fire Nation was TRUELY Asian, they would have already had arranged marriges. But no, Zuko is free to date and Azula remains uncommitted.

    Edited on 01/04/2009 12:47pm
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  • Avatar of Chesis

    Chesis

    [69]Jan 4, 2009
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    MarryLarry wrote:
    Sorry to throw a wrench in your point, but Night is one of the producers, as well as the director and screenwriter. He's in charge of pretty much every aspect of the development process since he's the one who came up with the idea for Avatar to be a movie and presented it to Nick.

    One of. All right, but the point still stands he has other people to answer to, it's Marshall and Kennedy's production company, and there's the whole Paramount studio hierarchy on top of that. And minority people can be as racist as anyone else, which is really the point I should have led with in the first place.

    MarryLarry wrote:
    If any one of those 3 ever comes out to publicly admit or even hint at the possibility that they were hoodwinked by some Paramount corporate goon, then I'll submit to your claims of the movie being racist and even apologise

    Thank you, but not necessary. It's the misconceptions about this whole casting thing that are bothering me - even if the original creators were okay with it (which I highly doubt), people should still realize how wrong this is. Race is important. You can't *not* think about it when you're dealing with material like this.

    I'm not going to make any assumptions about behind the scenes politicking, but I don't think we're going to hear much from Mike and Bryan period, as long as they're still trying to get other Avatar projects off the ground.

    MarryLarry wrote:
    I'm just saying throwing out words like racism to support your hatred is a little extreme. Nothing personal.

    Sadly, sometimes it's the only way to get the point across. And this is one of theose times where it's justified. It would be different is they rewrote the roles to take out the Asian connotations, or started over with an adaptation of the same concepts. But a total whitewash of those characters? Not acceptable.

    Edited on 01/04/2009 12:56pm
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  • Avatar of Chesis

    Chesis

    [70]Jan 4, 2009
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    gilvatar wrote:
    I never said there weren't asian influences. I'm saying that technically, if you COMPLETELY seperate our world from the avatar world, the characters can't be asian because there is no asia. They're not any race from our world. The characters are just people.


    All right then. Why do those people who have no real world ethniciy all have to be white? Especially when the show says they're supposed to be four different ethnicities?
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    gilvatar

    [71]Jan 4, 2009
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    Chesis wrote:
    gilvatar wrote:
    I never said there weren't asian influences. I'm saying that technically, if you COMPLETELY seperate our world from the avatar world, the characters can't be asian because there is no asia. They're not any race from our world. The characters are just people.


    All right then. Why do those people who have no real world ethniciy all have to be white? Especially when the show says they're supposed to be four different ethnicities?
    Maybe these were the actors who nailed the parts.
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    _Flutterlight_

    [72]Jan 4, 2009
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    And there ARE pleanty of things in Avatar that are not Asian or Inuit.

    Look at the Fire Nation. Their islands were based off of the Netherlands. That's not asian. Are Platapi Asian? No, they're from Australia. Bosco was a BROWN BEAR. Brown Bears aren't native to Asia. Lemurs are only found on Madagascar, and I don't remember that being part of asia.

    What about Katara's blue eyes. I do not know ONE asian or inuit with blue eyes. I do not know any asians or inuits with brown wavy hair either. Or what about Zuko and Mai dating each other? If the Fire Nation was TRUELY Asian, they would have already had arranged marriges. But no, Zuko is free to date and Azula remains uncommitted.
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    gilvatar

    [73]Jan 4, 2009
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    And there ARE pleanty of things in Avatar that are not Asian or Inuit.

    Look at the Fire Nation. Their islands were based off of the Netherlands. That's not asian. Are Platapi Asian? No, they're from Australia. Bosco was a BROWN BEAR. Brown Bears aren't native to Asia. Lemurs are only found on Madagascar, and I don't remember that being part of asia.

    What about Katara's blue eyes. I do not know ONE asian or inuit with blue eyes. I do not know any asians or inuits with brown wavy hair either. Or what about Zuko and Mai dating each other? If the Fire Nation was TRUELY Asian, they would have already had arranged marriges. But no, Zuko is free to date and Azula remains uncommitted.
    didn't u just say that?
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    Chesis

    [74]Jan 4, 2009
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Hamma in "the Puppet Master" has more pale skin than Aang does. The guy who Yue was engaged to was white. So was Bato, and Katara and Sokka's father. Actually, it's just a few members of the Northern Water Tribe who are darker skined, + Katara and Sokka. (But they're a quarter Northern Water Tribe anyway.)

    What color exactly are they supposed to be, hmm? I'm full blood Asian and lighter than most white people. There are plenty of Aleutians and Inuits who have pale skin too. The water tribe people weren't white. Look at their clothes, their culture, their architecture - it's a lot of amalgamations, sure, but all of them distinctly not Western or European. I don't understand how you can look at people who live in igloos and immediately think, oh, they're white by default.

    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Look at the Fire Nation. Their islands were based off of the Netherlands. That's not asian. Are Platapi Asian? No, they're from Australia. Bosco was a BROWN BEAR. Brown Bears aren't native to Asia. Lemurs are only found on Madagascar, and I don't remember that being part of asia.

    The Fire Nation is geographically closer to Japan,unless the Netherlands somehow acquired some volcanoes since the last time I was there. But that's beside the point. The creators did use other influences like the almalgamated animals, and the Mayan sun temples and crazy hippie folk among others, but the Asian cultures clearly predominate. You can't nitpick your way out of it.

    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    What about Katara's blue eyes. I do not know ONE asian or inuit with blue eyes. I do not know any asians or inuits with brown wavy hair either. Or what about Zuko and Mai dating each other? If the Fire Nation was TRUELY Asian, they would have already had arranged marriges. But no, Zuko is free to date and Azula remains uncommitted.

    Oh, this is a fun one. One of the recurring arguments is about eye color. Guess what? That was entirely deliberate. Look closely. Everyone in the Water Tribe has blue eyes, everyone in the Air Nomads has gray eyes, everyone in the Earth Kingdom has green or brown eyes, and everyone in the fire nation has gold eyes. Isn't that neat? They correspond to the country's element. Not any real world model. That's one of the impossible elements that make the show *fantasy.*

    And plenty of Asians don't have arranged marriages. I didn't. You telling me I'm not Asian?

    Edited on 01/04/2009 1:23pm
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    Chesis

    [75]Jan 4, 2009
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    gilvatar wrote:
    Maybe these were the actors who nailed the parts.

    Maybe the people responsible for casting decided that all the underlying themes of diversity and tolerance that formed the backbone of the show weren't worth keeping. I wonder what they'll throw away next?

    Seriously, they know how to cast minorities when they want to. There is no excuse for not having a single minority actor for four all minority-characters.

    Edited on 01/04/2009 1:34pm
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    ThisCrazyGuy

    [76]Jan 4, 2009
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    gilvatar wrote:
    Chesis wrote:
    gilvatar wrote:
    I never said there weren't asian influences. I'm saying that technically, if you COMPLETELY seperate our world from the avatar world, the characters can't be asian because there is no asia. They're not any race from our world. The characters are just people.
    All right then. Why do those people who have no real world ethniciy all have to be white? Especially when the show says they're supposed to be four different ethnicities?
    Maybe these were the actors who nailed the parts.
    I don't buy the fact that the whole main cast just happen to ALL be White people who nailed the part... There are plenty of Asian-American actors who probably would have done a better job than the current cast we have...

    And there is no official "Asia" in the Avatar world, but Bryke have CONSTANTLY, DELIBERATELY STRESSED the blatant Asian-influence that there is in the Avatar world, and you would have to be a fool not to see that the skin colours of the characters are based off of Asian races and civilizations. Not EVERY little thing in the Avatar world is Asian, but come on, look at the cast of the Movie, compare it to the physical features of the cast in the TV series, and tell me that it's fair... Yes I know it is animation, but you can't seriously say that the characters don't look more Asian than anything else... Did you read my link? Just asking, I would like to know what you think of what that woman is saying... Personally I think she makes all the sense there is to make.

    Edited on 01/04/2009 3:28pm
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    ThisCrazyGuy

    [77]Jan 4, 2009
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    And there ARE pleanty of things in Avatar that are not Asian or Inuit.
    Not really, not if you don't nitpick to the max, and look at the big things... All the MAJOR things are Asian-influenced...
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    _Flutterlight_

    [78]Jan 4, 2009
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    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:
    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    And there ARE pleanty of things in Avatar that are not Asian or Inuit.
    Not really, not if you don't nitpick to the max, and look at the big things... All the MAJOR things are Asian-influenced...


    But "looking at the big things" is generalizing, and ignoring a minority. Isn't that what the whole "Aang ain't white" is against?

    You know what? I CAN say that blue eyes makes the ENTIRE water tribe white, because the inuits didn't GET the genetic mutation for blue eyes. White people did.

    The "well, eye color is standard between the four nations" argumant is wrong, because that shows how Avatar is AGAIN, not entirely Asian, which was my only point to being with.

    Avatar is a melting pot which is not controlled by any one set of guidlines or rules, so the movie should not be held to any.

    What's important is the actors look like their characters and act like their characters. Not where they came from.
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    _Flutterlight_

    [79]Jan 4, 2009
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    Finally- I was in no way saying that you are not Asian.

    The Fire Nation is based off of Japan, right? Well, back before Japan's industrial revolution, arranged marriges were the standard- especially for royalty.

    I was saying that if Zuko and Azula were really Japanese "Asian" they both would have been engaged to people. Therefore, Zuko and Mai could not have dated.

    (And then because they did, Avatar is not entirely asian, so why should we throw this big hissy fit over the character casting, when there's nothing we can do anyway?)
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    ranger8060

    [80]Jan 4, 2009
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    wow..so much controversy
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