libraman_92 wrote: | ||
ThisCrazyGuy is really a good user. we should give him a round of applause |
*applauses ThisCrazyGuy*
Nickelodeon (ended 2008)
libraman_92 wrote: | ||
ThisCrazyGuy is really a good user. we should give him a round of applause |
FireLordZuko93 wrote: | ||||
*applauses ThisCrazyGuy* |
libraman_92 wrote: | ||||||
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ThisCrazyGuy wrote: |
I COMPLETELY AGREE ABOUT JEONG JEONG THOUGH. His abilities can even rival Iroh's... Being able to concentrate flames on water, a skill that has only been demonstrated by him. He is older, more experienced, wiser and probably more powerful tha Azula. Your definitely right on that one. =] |
isabelwhatx wrote: | ||
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To add on to your argument, Azula is only 14 years old. Despite her young age, she has been able to manipulate people and her brother and capture Ba Sing Se. Not only that, but she can create lightning! She can create lightning without killing herself and avoiding the dangers. Has Jeong Jeong ever created lightning? I don't think so, and we have never seen it. Also, when Azula was insane she was still able to create lightning. Even in her mental and shattered state she was able to control the energy without making it strike through her heart, a feat which deserves applause for a young woman in a mental state.
isabelwhatx wrote: |
She doesn't let emotions get in the way of her battling, which has proven to be very useful. |
What you said is very important. I stress upon the fact that Azula can generate lightning without hurting herself. Even Iroh said it was difficult, since it requires peace of mind and no emotion. Azula is 14, and she can shoot lightning without killing herself, and she can do that when she is insane. I originally thought during the finale that that was the way Azula was going to die: she was going to try to create lightning and die because she could not control it. I seriously think Azula has focus, persevearance, determination, and skills which she can use even when mental. It was during her mental breakdown that Azula's emotions clashed about Zuko, Ursa, Mai, Ty Lee, and trust, and despite that, she could create lightning and successfully injure someone, too.
Let me first congratulate ThisCrazyGuy, and welcome him to this forum. Continue to make posts like yours, and you will succeed beyond all doubts.
I would just like to bring up something. TitanPredator keeps saying that Jeong Jeong would not fall for Azula's tricks. But Iroh, who we all agree is far more powerful and wise than Jeong Jeong, has fallen for Azula's tricks several times. He was smart enough not to trust her one bit in The Avatar State, but nevertheless, if that stupid captain hadn't spoken out accidently, he would have gone along with it, and as it was he was almost too late. In The Chase, Azula took him down, blasting a hole in his side. During the finale, iroh clashed with Azula in their battle for Zuko's allegiance and once again lost, unable to convince his nephew that helping Azula was a really stupid thing to do.
We all agree that Iroh is Jeong Jeong's superior, and Azula has managed to best Iroh several times. Does that not imply that she could also best Jeong Jeong?
isabelwhatx wrote: |
Well, Axrendale, in The Avatar State Iroh knew that it was all a trick. He only went along to protect Zuko, who was beyond reasoning. But Iroh's softness is a weakness, so it's not an excuse. |
Oh iroh definitely knew that it was a trick. But the point is that Azula had him outmanouvered; he had nothing that he could use to justify putting a stop to her until the captain slipped up (talk about a deus ex machina). even though Iroh was as suspicious as heck of Azula, there was nothing he could do. It's all about the mmanipulations, and Azula is a master of the game.
Axrendale wrote: | ||
Oh iroh definitely knew that it was a trick. But the point is that Azula had him outmanouvered; he had nothing that he could use to justify putting a stop to her until the captain slipped up (talk about a deus ex machina). even though Iroh was as suspicious as heck of Azula, there was nothing he could do. It's all about the mmanipulations, and Azula is a master of the game. |
EDIT: I mean, I'm sure they wanted her to defeat Iroh, but I don't think they realized how much she was pwning. I hope they did, though. It would make them all the more awesome.
Axrendale wrote: | ||
Oh iroh definitely knew that it was a trick. But the point is that Azula had him outmanouvered; he had nothing that he could use to justify putting a stop to her until the captain slipped up (talk about a deus ex machina). even though Iroh was as suspicious as heck of Azula, there was nothing he could do. It's all about the mmanipulations, and Azula is a master of the game. |
You're right! She is THE master of manipulating. But what could she do to manipulate Jeong Jeong? He didn't care about the Fire Nation untill Ozai was defeated. And further he will probably ignore everything Azula says. But I realy think he can take on Azula. (and I'm not the only one) He had probably seen everything in the army. He was a legendary admiral. And he can let flames burn on water. You've got to have skills for that! And if you want to take out 30 battle tanks by youself you've also need to have some skills. The fire blasts of the tanks where also boosted by the comet, so if there was no comet he could have taken them out to. And when Azula is going to try and kill him with lightning. That's just suicide. Not everybody is stupid enough to stand and wait untill she is ready to strike like Zuko did. He will just attack her. And so will Iroh probably to. And everybody else. And if he can block the attacks of 5 firebenders like in the Deserter and of 3 tanks like in the finale, I'm sure he can also block fire blasts from Azula. So in my opinion Jeong Jeong can win. BUT, if Azula gets older and is an adult, she will win.
Well, the way I see it, we have two different types of Firebending geniuses.
We have, the clever, wise, experienced man, who is described by many to be, a Firebending Master, a Legend, and the only man to truly escape form the Fire Nation army, and live. He has demonstarted the abilities to create tremendously large fire walls, and is the only male or female firebender in the whole Avatar universe (As far as my knowledge) that has demonstrated the ability to concentrate flames on to water. He is capable of knowing what happens to things or people without even looking, and was able to tell what bending arts Aang had learnt, by the time Aang had walked into the room. He is fairly old, but his age is something I don't consider a weakness, it doesn't seem to give him much trouble.
We have also seen, a smart, extremely intelligent, manipulative, dangerous, pure evil but great, 14 year old girl, who is seriously (like you all said) the only person to ever conquer Ba Sing Se, and was a Firebending Master in the making when she was just little. She is a feared firebending prodigy, and can be described as the PERFECT villian. Even when she lost her clutch on reality she was extremely powerful, she is a very good strategist (she even once fooled Toph by lying).
So we have the clever, powerful youth, the only person to be described as a "prodigy", and was able to conquer the Earth Kingdom capital at age 14, using nothing but smarts to do so.
And we have a wise, experienced, old but extremely powerful man who is known to be the first and only person to do many things, both achievments AND techniques.
Comparing them is difficult, it's wise experience vs intelligent youth.
Thanks Guys. I'm going to love it here. =]
Both have made some of the greatest records and achievments...
Like, Azula, as said by SalKing CONQUERING THE EARTH KINGDOM CAPITAL at the young, less-experienced aged of 14. A young teenager using sheer intelligence and god-like (exageration, but I needed to add it) strategy. She is a young master, and can compete with the best Firebenders in their universe, at the young age of 14, which I respect and admire her for. Yes isabelwatx and Sal King are right, she was even able to manipulate lightning, while at the roots of a mental condition, so she is a legend in the making.
Jeong Jeong, as I have stated before, is a wise, very, very powerul man, and is the first and only person to do alot of things, like being the only known person to walk away from the army and LIVE, being able to predict (rightly) the amount of expereince the Avatar has with each bending art (by the time Aang had simply walked into a room and stood behind Jeong Jeong), was able to sense what Aang was doing without even looking at him, and has demonstrated the extrodinary ability to balance flames on water.
They are like two differnt types of masters.
=D
ThisCrazyGuy wrote: |
Both have made some of the greatest records and achievments... Like, Azula, as said by SalKing CONQUERING THE EARTH KINGDOM CAPITAL at the young, less-experienced aged of 14. A young teenager using sheer intelligence and god-like (exageration, but I needed to add it) strategy. She is a young master, and can compete with the best Firebenders in their universe, at the young age of 14, which I respect and admire her for. Yes isabelwatx and Sal King are right, she was even able to manipulate lightning, while at the roots of a mental condition, so she is a legend in the making. Jeong Jeong, as I have stated before, is a wise, very, very powerul man, and is the first and only person to do alot of things, like being the only known person to walk away from the army and LIVE, being able to predict (rightly) the amount of expereince the Avatar has with each bending art (by the time Aang had simply walked into a room and stood behind Jeong Jeong), was able to sense what Aang was doing without even looking at him, and has demonstrated the extrodinary ability to balance flames on water. They are like two differnt types of masters. =D |
Indeed they are two different types of masters. Personali I think Jeong Jeong has more skills in bending, (let flames burn on water). And Azula sure is EXTREMELY strong and smart. But being able to bend lightning won't help her. She creates is to slow. Everybody could have attacked her during the time she needed to generate the lightning. Ozai is the only one who can use it in a fight effectively. Except if the opponent cand redirect. Jeong Jeong can't do that, but he won't need to against Azula. She's to slow. And also because he was able to know what Aang was doing without looking, I'm pretty sure he knows what Azula is up to. She is very good at lying, but that won't help her in the fight either. Everybody needs a good stance for striking, and so does Azula. She can't hide her stance for Jeong Jeong. He already knows how Aang stood without looking, I'm sure he can figure out how Azula stands WITH looking. And I think he can predict what Azula is up to by looking and analyzing her stance. So they are different types of masters, but Jeong Jeong wins in a fight I guess.
TitanPredator wrote: | ||
Indeed they are two different types of masters. Personali I think Jeong Jeong has more skills in bending, (let flames burn on water). And Azula sure is EXTREMELY strong and smart. But being able to bend lightning won't help her. She creates is to slow. Everybody could have attacked her during the time she needed to generate the lightning. Ozai is the only one who can use it in a fight effectively. Except if the opponent cand redirect. Jeong Jeong can't do that, but he won't need to against Azula. She's to slow. And also because he was able to know what Aang was doing without looking, I'm pretty sure he knows what Azula is up to. She is very good at lying, but that won't help her in the fight either. Everybody needs a good stance for striking, and so does Azula. She can't hide her stance for Jeong Jeong. He already knows how Aang stood without looking, I'm sure he can figure out how Azula stands WITH looking. And I think he can predict what Azula is up to by looking and analyzing her stance. So they are different types of masters, but Jeong Jeong wins in a fight I guess. |
Not so at all. Right from the start, Azula has something Jeong Jeong doesn't - Blue Firebending. Blue Firebending is equally powerful to Original Firebending, and far, far stronger than Jeong Jeong's regular Firebending. I'm surprised nobody has brought that up yet.
Azula's lightning skills are definitely improving. We saw in "The Chase" that she is capable of summoning up a lightning bolt in a fews seconds while moving at a fast pace. So we can assume that she can run and dodge to some degree while charging her lightning to hurl at Jeong Jeong. If Jeong Jeong allows himslef to stand still for even a few seconds, he will get zapped.
If Azula can control her body to the point where she can keep her heart under control when Toph tries to detect her lying, we can assume that she fool Jeong Jeong when he tries to analyze her stance and style.
There is no evidence that Jeong Jeong knows anything Firebending that Azula doesn't; quite the contrary, in fact. Azula has, in the past, come up with some extremely surprising moves of her own, ranging from blocking Aang''s airbending attack in "Return to Omashu" without using any apparent Firebending, to pulling off what appears to have been a watered down version of Combustion Man's attack in "The Beach".
There is also another factor to consider; Azula's other combat skills. During various figths where she found bending to be inconvenient she has displayed some stunning acrobatics and hand-to-hand combat moves, and in DoBS showed that she was apparently confident with using melee weapons too, even if she never got the chance to do so. Thus far, jeong Jeong has demonstrated no skills to match these.
Azula's incredible ability to remain aware of her surroundings is another factor. During the scene in "The Chase" where she, Mai, and Ty Lee split up to follow different trails, she demonstrated an incredible ability to take in everything around her, figure out it's meaning, and act on it all in mere moments. I'd say that this definitely counters Jeong Jeong's proven abilities with analyzing people.
So Azula wins the fight, now and forever.
Axrendale wrote: | ||||
Not so at all. Right from the start, Azula has something Jeong Jeong doesn't - Blue Firebending. Blue Firebending is equally powerful to Original Firebending, and far, far stronger than Jeong Jeong's regular Firebending. I'm surprised nobody has brought that up yet. Azula's lightning skills are definitely improving. We saw in "The Chase" that she is capable of summoning up a lightning bolt in a fews seconds while moving at a fast pace. So we can assume that she can run and dodge to some degree while charging her lightning to hurl at Jeong Jeong. If Jeong Jeong allows himslef to stand still for even a few seconds, he will get zapped. If Azula can control her body to the point where she can keep her heart under control when Toph tries to detect her lying, we can assume that she fool Jeong Jeong when he tries to analyze her stance and style. There is no evidence that Jeong Jeong knows anything Firebending that Azula doesn't; quite the contrary, in fact. Azula has, in the past, come up with some extremely surprising moves of her own, ranging from blocking Aang''s airbending attack in "Return to Omashu" without using any apparent Firebending, to pulling off what appears to have been a watered down version of Combustion Man's attack in "The Beach". There is also another factor to consider; Azula's other combat skills. During various figths where she found bending to be inconvenient she has displayed some stunning acrobatics and hand-to-hand combat moves, and in DoBS showed that she was apparently confident with using melee weapons too, even if she never got the chance to do so. Thus far, jeong Jeong has demonstrated no skills to match these. Azula's incredible ability to remain aware of her surroundings is another factor. During the scene in "The Chase" where she, Mai, and Ty Lee split up to follow different trails, she demonstrated an incredible ability to take in everything around her, figure out it's meaning, and act on it all in mere moments. I'd say that this definitely counters Jeong Jeong's proven abilities with analyzing people. So Azula wins the fight, now and forever. |
Well, we didn't see Azula being capable to concentrate flames on water. And if she can control her hartbeat, SO WHAT? She can't hide if she widens her stance of moves her arm! Jeong Jeong sure can see that. And he is experienced and probably what she is up to. But if Azula is running and generating lightning at the same time, he just creates a 20 foot high and 100 foot wide wall of fire in front of her. She can't dodge that. And she can't run trough it. It takes firebending to walk trough it. As demonstrated by Zhao in "the Deserter" And she certainly can't walk trough it if he creates a wall of fire at full power.
And I have a question. How do you know blue fire is equal powerfull to original firebending? And how do you even know if that is more powerfull than regular firebending? Fire comes from the inner drive. Not from anger, and hate. As far as I know, the main difference is that the sun warriors know it. The rest doesn't. The only reason that Zuko became stronger after FBM was that his drive to stop the war was bigger than his drive to chase Aang. And if there realy is a difference in true and anger firebending, than Zuko should have been the most powerfull firebender, because he was the most pissed of person in the series. But I don't think that one blast from Azula is equal powerfull as that of 5 firenation soldiers. And anyway, I think there is a difference in skills and raw power. Skills for example is being able to let flames burn on water. Raw power is the power of the blasts.
And as far a I'm conserned about her "combustion" skills in the beach. That was just a big exaggeration of the ball hitting the ground. But it sure was a powerfull kick though. And boosted by firebending.
And about her lightning skills improving. That won't help her now. In the future it does. If she gets older and can pull of a quik lightning strike like Ozai did, she can defeat him. But not with her still average speed lightning.
But at least I'm not the only one who is convinced that Jeong Jeong can beat her.
Like my opinion on Toph and King Bumi for Earthbending, I do think, that within the next 10 years, Azula (if she's not still on that mental island), will easily be able to trump Jeong Jeong, but now, I'm not quite sure... For all we know, Azula could have been at her limit for greatness in Firebending before she lost her grip on reality. I can't see Sane Azula losing, but the idea of Jeong Jeong being defeated by her isn't something I can picture in my head either. We need to compare their abilities, minds, strengths and weaknesses.
So, Obviously, for Azula, her main weakness at this point, is the condition of her mental health and sanity, but other than that, we haven't really seen her to have any other weaknesses, atleast on the battle field. If Jeong Jeong were to bring up her mother (Ursa), then there is a slim chance that she would snap, considering even Sane Azula has kept her feelings about her mother bottled up inside from her very first appearence (obviously up until the finale). Although it should be noted that Insane Azula was still able to concentrate hard enough to create lightning and charge up her blue fire as if to ride it like a vehicle. But I cannot see Jeong Jeong stooping that low, especially considering he despises hate and war. Azula's strength's are obviously her (apart from her finale moments) stable, agile, strategic, deeply intelligent mind, and her abiltiy to always concentrate on her Firebending (whether insane, or not). She was even able to control her own heartbeat and challenge Toph's abilities to sense, that's amazing. She has also (like Axrendale said), been shown to have a great amount of athletic ability and even physical strength (see Boiling Rock part 2 fight scene). She can just about do all forms of Firebending, and had/has the potential to surpass Ozai's former firebending abilities.
Jeong Jeong's strength's are probably a number of things, but because we haven't seen much of him, we can only rely on what we have seen, which is probably all he can do anyways. He has shown the unique, remarkable ability to balance and concentrate flames on water, has been described by many as; a legend, a firebending master, he knew virtually everything about Aang's training in the bending arts, knew how Aang was physically standing while he had his back turned, and it should be taken into account that in "The Deserter" he proved to be slightly more intelligent than Avatar Roku in the situation of Aang skipping the other bending arts to learn firebending.
It appears Azula is the clear victor from what I have thought and written.
Blue Firebending (like Axrendale said), is known to be more powerful and intense than the normale yellow/orange/red fire we usually see. Even in real life, blue fire has been scientifically proven to be way hotter than regular fire (I know you guys all know this (duh lol), but I just thought I'd point that out =D), and Blue Firebending is known to have a stronger force, and to be more concussive and intense. So we know that Azula's fire trumps Jeong Jeong's fire... Let's look at their abilities OTHER than usual firebending. Azula can create electricity/lightning, and is one of the only 3 people in the show capable of doing so, she's also the youngest person to be able to generate lightning. Jeong Jeong has not truly been shown to be able to bend anything except normal yellow-red fire, and as cool and godly as his techniques are, they are still rather minor compared to lightning. Although, his techniques, pure knowledge and experience as a bender prove him to have great techniques, I don't think they match Azula's. However, Jeong Jeong does not have to study people, and instead can tell what they have done and where they have been in life by the time they have entered the same room as him.
In conclusion, Azula wins. I know I contradicted myself (sorry, I'm too fickle) lol =D, but after viewing some of the Firebending scenes of both of them individually, I think that Azula would win, threw trickery, but never the less win. Trickery is what would get her past... Trickery is Azula's middle name... Let's think back to all the times she has used to clever trickery to pick up the win or at least escape: even when she didn't have any physical bending abilities (for a whole 8 minutes), she was able to trick The Avatar, the most powerful Earthbender in the show (probably is, either that or joined with King Bumi), and a smart Sokka into chasing her, via her professional manipulative strategy (she even made Sokka crack by doing what she does best and picking on his weak points (a captured and imprisoned Suki)). In that same episode, she was able to use basic trickery, to challenge Toph's amazing and (thought to be) unmatched senses (Note this was ALL when she didn't have ANY firebending/in the course of 8 minutes). In "The Crossroads Of Destiny" she was able to deeply manipulate and TRICK Zuko (which ironically served as the catalyst to Ba Sing Se being captured for the first time, by her, AND Aang almost dying, also her doing), and make him join her side, completely changing what he thought was his destiny. In that SAME episode, earlier before that, she was the first person in Fire Nation history to be able to get into the walls of Ba Sing Se (via her TRICKERY), fool everyone for a fairly long period of time and eventually pick up the win (being the first person to truly do that ASWELL). Notice how in "The Chase" she was able to take that one, tiny little moment, Iroh (Truly, The Dragon Of The West) was focusing on something else (Toph) and not her, and seize it, with a vicious, merciless blue fire ball to the chest. Think about it, Iroh clearly rival's (but doesn't defeat) Ozai, and is The Dragon Of The West (also (along with Aang and Zuko) is the only known person to know the true way of firebending), we can all fully agree he own's Jeong Jeong, in firebending and maybe even in smarts (it's damn possible =P), so, if Azula could do THAT to Iroh, and take that little bit of slowness as an advantage towards IROH, think what she could do to Jeong Jeong, whom Iroh is superior to (by far, we can ALL agree of that)... She also tricked Zuko in their very last and finale battle/Agni Kai, virtually winning (although that can be, and is argued). I also admire how she was able to use a small, but obviously powerful Blue fire wall to block an attack from all for elements (plus a boomerang =P) again, in "The Chase. TRICKERY and confidence is her key... So Azula wins.
I'm just typing to much now, I'll stop... lol =D