Join

We're moving Forums to the Community pages. Click here for more information and updates.

Avatar: The Last Airbender Forums

Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Katara vs Zuko

  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [221]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 08/11/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 842
    hakeemadams94 wrote:
    zukone wrote:
    hakeemadams94 wrote:

    zukone wrote:
    Uh, my main point in that quote was that Zuko does not compare to Jeong. If you read any of my previous posts, I say that Zuko is an excellent physical fighter.

    yeah and a great bender.
    Now that wasn't my point at all. I'll only say, he "might" be good. I give you permission to loathe me.

    Just admit it already.All he needs to do know is listen to iroh so he could learn how to control or redirect lightning.


    I don't think that's ALL he needs to do. And lighting is *yawn* boring.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of pmgandrews

    pmgandrews

    [222]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 01/03/05
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 35
    zukone wrote:
    You could say that, but I am not at all attached to Jeong Jeong. I concede on the points where I was mistaken. In parts, I think there are quite a few flaws to Jeong that make him unlikable. I like Zuko better than Jeong, but I haven't crossed over into nutty-bo-bo land because of it. Even if the perception is that Zuko is strong, there is no way he is better than Jeong.


    How do you know. Jeong Jeong's firewall is not a feat of great power. He himself quite clearly stated that fire grows huge and out of control and a true bender contains it. This was Zhao's main weakness, he could create huge balls of fire, but could contain them, and as such sunk his own boats.

    :
    Your arguments that Zuko is a better bender than Katara are more believable, though I may disagree. I went off in a rant because I think this comparison is silly. It discredits you. Control is one of the things that makes the better bender and he created a wall which he controlled. He didn't let the fire grow huge as you insinuate. Nor was it just a big random blast he let take over(like Zhao did). He was able to CREATE and CONTROL a huge amount of fire. I doubt that being able to control a palm sized fireball is comparable to that. Jeong expresses more control over his bending than Zhao. Period.


    Zuko creating 2 mini lightsabers means he compressed a huuuuuuuuge amount of fire into those 2 daggers, far more then a huge wall of fire.

    Then there's also creating fire under water, no bender as of yet has shown a feat close to this in terms of ability.

    :
    While Jeong was teaching Aang, the first principle he taught after breathing was containing fire. If Zhao pushed the fire away, it could have been nothing more than a basic principle in use. Because he was Jeong's student, it was probably one of the earlier principles he learned.


    But the fact that he pushed away a masters fire means he has a lot of power.
    Unless you believe that the Katara from the first episode can smack away a water whip from Season 2 Katara.

    Jeong Joeng made it clear Zhao had no interest in learning control, just power.

    :
    My whole force applied to one spot thing still stands. This is a Physics principle. How can you discount that so readily? It doesn't even make sense.


    He didn't punch a hole in it, or even try to remove the wall, he just walked right on as if it wasn't there.

    :
    As I said before, Jeong's concern was for others. Also it is clear that he had become a pacifist. He wasn't interested in fighting. Zhao was a threat because he was the antagonist (on the offence), but he wasn't greater than Jeong.


    It was just Zhao and a few guards. Iroh plowed through a similar force in seconds twice now.
    If Jeong Jeong's main interest was escaping, but at the same time protecting everyone (including Aang), then he'd have quickly defeaten Zhao.

    The fact that he fled after Zhao effortlessly broke through his flame wall suggests he might have lost. That is at least what the writers are trying to suggest.

    Then there's also the possibility that he's simply a lot weaker then he used to be, if he did truly give up fighting.

    Of course he said he'd no longer fight for the Fire Nation, not that he'd never fight again.

    :
    Furthermore, Zhao's lack of control adds to the argument as to why Zuko was able to beat him. Aang was able to beat him by allowing him to destroy his own ship. It's not like Aang went toe to toe with him on the offensive. Therefore, Zuko's beating him may have little to do with Zuko's bending ability and more to do with Zhao's lack of fighting ability. Yes the bending helped. However, I am not convinced that Zhao, however great he was, was massively good to begin with.


    At SotN, Zuko quite clearly beat him with bending, he blew Zhao off the first wall with a fireball for one. Aang defeated him with his brain, Zuko defeated him with a pure offensive assault.

    :
    The whole Zuko>Zhao>Jeong is simplistic because Zhao is the inferior fighter and Jeong is a pacifist. There was no real confrontation between Jeong and Zhao. Rock, paper, scissors.
    I mean more in terms of raw power then actual skill.

    A Martial Arts master can easily own a body builder, but is still weaker after all.
    :
    Although, I don't believe that Zhao compares to Jeong, a master, in the bending facet. If you say it is based on my own writing, you have misunderstood me. I was talking about the display in sheer volume in elemental control as an indicator of strength in the element. I am not saying that there aren't any exceptions to the rule. It was an observation.


    True, except based on Jeong Jeong's statement, containing fire is far more impressive then creating huge fireballs.

    That might be why Azula's fireballs are blue, its simply a huge amount of fire contained into 1 small ball.

    :
    Avatar Roku was the one who told him to teach the Avatar. He has to be good enough to do it. Just because he might have been the only one who was available to teach him doesn't mean he wasn't well qualified.
    You make it seem like just anyone could teach the Avatar. He is a master. Confirmed. I say he is ------ well qualified.
    I never said he wasn't qualified, he's a master after all.

    :
    There is NO INDICATION or CONFIRMATION by the WRITERS that ZUKO is a MASTER or that he has reached master status.


    There wasn't any for Katara either, then she suddenly got the title Master. Based on Zuko's feats and wide amount of shown versatility, he deserves the title as much as Katara does.

    :
    Side note
    (If Zuko was using firebreath or whatever under water, really, he was already in use of his element. Creating a fire still might not have been that great of a feat.
    No, he breathed steam to warm his body back up after the swim.
    He pushed his hands against the ice and created fire to melt it. And that this was artic water, meaning very cold and this is a very impressive feat.

    :
    If it is, I don't care, (you really can't make me care). It doesn't make him that great and it's only impressive to me because it displays his survival instincts.)


    How can you call a wall of fire a masters feat, yet creating fire, under water, in subzero temparture is not impressive.

    That makes no sense

    :
    I am sorry, I missed a point of yours. I say that Jeong has power. Zhao's raw power for punching a hole (I thought you understood that I meant it figuratively) in a massive wall doesn't stand. He's not taking the whole wall on and that is where all of Jeongs power was. It was focused in many places. Jeong had never tried to send some flames to Zhao in a match for power. You can't just discredit him so easily.


    As I said, the writers obviously wanted to pass Zhao off as a serious threat, he was meant to be the main villain for the second half of Season 1, so they had a Fire Master try to stop him and fail.

    Zhao was meant to come off as very powerful, but lacking in terms of control and restraint.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Trollwrangler

    Trollwrangler

    [223]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 04/14/06
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 475

    If you've ever seen Trigun or Rurouni Kenshin, the main characters have amazing capabilities as fighters but have sworn never to kill. Their capabilities are severely hampered by this vow, but they're so damn strong it doesn't matter. Now imagine if a powerful character had sworn off fighting at all. Not even one fourth of their strength would actually show. It might not show at all.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [224]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 08/11/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 842
    oot. I'm just not impressed. If Zuko breathed steam, he was breathing hence the ability to make fire. Maybe I am mistaken on some of the details as I don't sit and watch anything religiously. Again, I'm not impressed. You can't make me impressed. But even that is mute. Let's say I was bedazzled. We are talking about him as compared to Jeong Jeong, the actual, bonafide, firebending genius.

    The wall of fire he created was controlled. If it was running ramapant and out of control, I could see your point. I already told you the purpose for the wall of fire. Something weak can penetrate something strong if it is concentrated in one area. Zhao didn't have to be strong to get through and Jeong wasn't exactly struggling to keep him out. You must see that he wasn't putting up a fight, purposely.

    Your point about Katara didn't help you negate my case. Someone actually referred to Katara as a master. Whether she is or not, is irrelevant. The fact that it was verbalized by a master (in the script written by the writers) gives her more cred than Zuko on that matter. Even if they recant, or tie it up nicely, that point still sides in her favor as of now. My main concern at this point is not whether or not you think Zuko is better than her at bending because I wasn't mainly referring to her when I talked about master status. The comparison of Zuko to Jeong is a completely different matter than comparing him to Katara. Zhao is not better than Jeong. Zuko is not better than Jeong.

    Zuko beating Zhao in a firebending match doesn't make Zuko strong at firebending. I contend that Zhao is not that strong in bending. I bet we have yet to see more impressive firebending from others. Even if you think he strong, he is still not as strong as Jeong.
    Edited on 10/10/2006 3:17pm
    Edited 4 total times.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [225]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 08/11/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 842
    Trollwrangler wrote:

    If you've ever seen Trigun or Rurouni Kenshin, the main characters have amazing capabilities as fighters but have sworn never to kill. Their capabilities are severely hampered by this vow, but they're so damn strong it doesn't matter. Now imagine if a powerful character had sworn off fighting at all. Not even one fourth of their strength would actually show. It might not show at all.


    You're right. I didn't even want to hit this side of the discussion or else I end up with another monster post. I'm good for those.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of hakeemadams94

    hakeemadams94

    [226]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 04/25/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 225

    zukone wrote:
    I'm just not impressed. If Zuko breathed steam, he was breathing hence the ability to make fire. Maybe I am mistaken on some of the details as I don't sit and watch anything religiously. Again, I'm not impressed. You can't make me impressed. But even that is mute. Let's say I was bedazzled. We are talking about him as compared to Jeong Jeong, the actual, bonafide, firebending genius. The wall of fire he created was controlled. If it was running ramapant and out of control, I could see your point. I already told you the purpose for the wall of fire. Something weak can penetrate something strong if it is concentrated in one area. Zhao didn't have to be strong to get through and Jeong wasn't exactly struggling to keep him out. You must see that he wasn't putting up a fight, purposely. Your point about Katara didn't help you negate my case. Someone actually referred to Katara as a master. Whether she is or not, is irrelevant. The fact that it was verbalized by a master (in the script written by the writers) gives her more cred than Zuko on that matter. Even if they recant, or tie it up nicely, that point still sides in her favor as of now. My main concern at this point is not whether or not you think Zuko is better than her at bending because I wasn't mainly refering to her when I talked about master status. The comparison of Zuko to Jeong is a completely different matter than comparing him to Katara. Zhao is not better than Jeong. Zuko is not better than Jeong. Zuko beating Zhao in a firebending match doesn't make Zuko strong at firebending. I contend that Zhao is not that strong in bending. I bet we have yet to see more impressive firebending from others. Even if you think he strong, he is still not as strong as Jeong.

    Zhao was a general and he owns him twice.Once when he was hurt before the fight.Who do u think will win in a fight katara or Zuko.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [227]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 10/02/06
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 600
    depends on their surroundings??

    to pmg:
    zuko did not make fire underwater. he heated up the ice above him. this does not impress me at all. i expect all firebenders to be able to melt ice

    fire daggers do not look like it takes a lot of skill to make

    zhao did not walk through the fire wall as if it were nothing. he put his arms out to "cut" through it

    and compressing fire does not make it blue. azula's fire is blue cuz she chooses to use stronger fire and cuz she's a GREAT bender
    Edited on 10/09/2006 5:17pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of arthuroys

    arthuroys

    [228]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 10/01/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 114
    this thread just doesn't die, does it?

    ??
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of misterham

    misterham

    [229]Oct 9, 2006
    • member since: 10/02/06
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 600
    nope it wont

    until they have a rematch that CLEARLY proves one superior to the other, which i doubt they will
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of hakeemadams94

    hakeemadams94

    [230]Oct 10, 2006
    • member since: 04/25/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 225

    misterham wrote:
    nope it wont until they have a rematch that CLEARLY proves one superior to the other, which i doubt they will

    We all know the outcome of the next time they meet.Zuko>>iroh.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of masterofaeons

    masterofaeons

    [231]Oct 10, 2006
    • member since: 05/12/04
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 4,476
    Boy, I missed a lot. To sum up, no one believes Katara isn't a master yet and everyone still thinks Zuko's the best firebender since Pete's Dragon, right?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [232]Oct 10, 2006
    • member since: 08/11/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 842
    masterofaeons wrote:
    Boy, I missed a lot. To sum up, no one believes Katara isn't a master yet and everyone still thinks Zuko's the best firebender since Pete's Dragon, right?

    It's only that if I admit Katara isn't a master, it hinders my point that she's the better bender. It's self-serving actually. My point really was that she was at least referenced as a master and Zuko was not.

    I only went full out, guns a blazing, on the Jeong point.

    Yeah, and it appears that Zuko is the best thing since sliced bread because he also has the ability to toast it.

    (I am being unfair. Zuko appreciators, I give you permission to hate me.)

    That guy was right.?? This thread WON'T die.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of masterofaeons

    masterofaeons

    [233]Oct 10, 2006
    • member since: 05/12/04
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 4,476
    Awww, man. You've got less posts then me, but you're a higher level. I hate this thing.

    They're both novices. Katara's got more raw talent, Zuko is just brilliant. That's the Final Word.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Hokai

    Hokai

    [234]Oct 10, 2006
    • member since: 06/21/06
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 159

    masterofaeons wrote:
    Awww, man. You've got less posts then me, but you're a higher level. I hate this thing. They're both novices. Katara's got more raw talent, Zuko is just brilliant. That's the Final Word.

    u dont lvl like other ppl, cuz u have an ugly picture, and u can take that to the bank, ugly pictured, 525 posts, but only lvl 4 looser

    lol, jk

    Edited on 10/10/2006 10:33pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of metalcurtainrod

    metalcurtainrod

    [235]Oct 11, 2006
    • member since: 05/15/06
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 2,302
    masterofaeons wrote:
    Awww, man. You've got less posts then me, but you're a higher level. I hate this thing.


    Posts aren't the only way to level up. You can write a blog, review a show/episode, contribute, etc.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [236]Oct 11, 2006
    • member since: 08/11/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 842
    masterofaeons wrote:
    Awww, man. You've got less posts then me, but you're a higher level. I hate this thing.

    They're both novices. Katara's got more raw talent, Zuko is just brilliant. That's the Final Word.


    You mean that's your final word and I accept it as your final word. Me, I might have a plethora of words to add on the matter. Honestly, I think we're all a bit tired out.

    Yeah. I like the system because I don't have to be a post whore just to advance. A nice blog and a few reviews should boost your level quite nicely.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of masterofaeons

    masterofaeons

    [237]Oct 11, 2006
    • member since: 05/12/04
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 4,476
    Hax!
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of etherfreeze

    etherfreeze

    [238]Oct 11, 2006
    • member since: 10/08/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 88

    wow this argument went trally off topic since i last posted but anyway he're my two cents about the current situation :

    A) Whoever said that Jeong is not as good a firebender as Zhou is?? clearly mistaken. He fled because he is a pacifist and did not wish to fight anymore. His flame wall was simply a flashy distraction by which he could escape.

    B) ***Just because one bender comes out on top in a specific battle does not make them more skilled than their opponent. Personally I believe that Katara has a wider range of waterbending abilities than Zuko, but this doesn't mean he can't beat her. Aang defeated Toph in championship match in "the blind bandit" by using air bending. However, proves absolutely nothing about Toph's abilities - she was simply taken by surprise (as was Katara when Zuko beat her in the North Pole).

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of zukone

    zukone

    [239]Oct 11, 2006
    • member since: 08/11/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 842
    etherfreeze wrote:

    wow this argument went trally off topic since i last posted but anyway he're my two cents about the current situation :

    A) Whoever said that Jeong is not as good a firebender as Zhou is clearly mistaken. He fled because he is a pacifist and did not wish to fight anymore. His flame wall was simply a flashy distraction by which he could escape.

    B) ***Just because one bender comes out on top in a specific battle does not make them more skilled than their opponent. Personally I believe that Katara has a wider range of waterbending abilities than Zuko, but this doesn't mean he can't beat her. Aang defeated Toph in championship match in "the blind bandit" by using air bending. However, proves absolutely nothing about Toph's abilities - she was simply taken by surprise (as was Katara when Zuko beat her in the North Pole).



    I solemnly vow to never let this thread die. For point 1, I thought the wall was a cover for Katara and the fire sphere was a the flashy distraction by which he could escape. In any event, I support your claims. All two. Except I would be certain to say that Jeong is superior to Zhao in bending.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of masterofaeons

    masterofaeons

    [240]Oct 11, 2006
    • member since: 05/12/04
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 4,476
    zukone wrote:
    etherfreeze wrote:

    wow this argument went trally off topic since i last posted but anyway he're my two cents about the current situation :

    A) Whoever said that Jeong is not as good a firebender as Zhou is clearly mistaken. He fled because he is a pacifist and did not wish to fight anymore. His flame wall was simply a flashy distraction by which he could escape.

    B) ***Just because one bender comes out on top in a specific battle does not make them more skilled than their opponent. Personally I believe that Katara has a wider range of waterbending abilities than Zuko, but this doesn't mean he can't beat her. Aang defeated Toph in championship match in "the blind bandit" by using air bending. However, proves absolutely nothing about Toph's abilities - she was simply taken by surprise (as was Katara when Zuko beat her in the North Pole).



    I solemnly vow to never let this thread die. For point 1, I thought the wall was a cover for Katara and the fire sphere was a the flashy distraction by which he could escape. In any event, I support your claims. All two. Except I would be certain to say that Jeong is superior to Zhao in bending.


    We have a word for that. It's called both. And for the love of god don't pronounce it with an L.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
Shows | Movies | Web | People | News | Videos | Community
Listings | Photos | Forums | Closed Captioning | Rating Guidelines
CBS Entertainment About CBS Interactive | About TV.com | Contact Us | Jobs | Advertise
© 2016 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. TV Guide Digital Network | Privacy Policy | Ad Choice | Terms of Use