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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Sozin's Comet (Series Finale) Official Discussion Thread - (*Major Spoilers*)

Rate the finale! How was it?

  • Avatar of hotangelcrazy

    hotangelcrazy

    [4141]Aug 28, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Azula discussion? *cracks knuckles*

    One of the most fascinating scenes in the entire finale was, in my opinion, Azula's hallucination of her mother. I think that this scene provided us more insight into Azula's character than any other in the entire series. My favorite part is this section of the dialouge:

    Ursa: "You're not a monster Azula - you're confused. All your life you've used fear to control everyone around you... like those two friends of yours - Mai and Ty Lee".

    Azula: "Well, what other choice do I have?!!! Trust is for fools! Fear is the only reliable way. Even you fear me".

    Ursa: "I don't fear you Azula - I love you"

    I think that the point of this was to establish that the key essence of Azula's behavior prior to the finale was her belief that fear is the only reliable way - and that love and trust are for fools. Where that idea originated is hard to say - Ursa apparently shares a lot of the blame, but I think Ozai definitely played a role in it. This belief formed the core of a huge part of Azula's character. Once it was gone, she broke down.

    I think one of the essential lines is, "You're not a monster, Azula - you're confused." That just goes to show that Azula is perfectly capable of healing and that it isn't her actual nature.

    I definitely think that she is capable of healing. I think that most of the blame should be put on Ozai because he used her as a tool. Since she was a child she was praised by him for her abilities and knowledge but then in the finale when he left her there it was kind of the last straw. Although Mai and TyLee's betrayal had a big part in her breakdown I think that Ozai's rejection hurt her the most because he was the one person who approved and encouraged her actions. She kinda summed up her anger when she said "You can't treat me like Zuko" because she proved herself time and time again that she was strong and loyal and he was casting her aside like Zuko. Even though he then stated that she would be fire lord I think that it was to late, she had already been rejected. Not to say that her mom had no part in it. Obviously I think that if Ursa had spent more time with her maybe she could have instilled some of the qualities that she possessed, like compassion.

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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4142]Aug 28, 2008
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    She said, "You can't treat me like Zuko" before Ozai offered her the throne. Trust me, that wasn't the reason why Azula freaked out. I'm too lazy to elaborate, but I probably will tomorrow. Or Axrendale will
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    libraman_92

    [4143]Aug 29, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    She said, "You can't treat me like Zuko" before Ozai offered her the throne. Trust me, that wasn't the reason why Azula freaked out. I'm too lazy to elaborate, but I probably will tomorrow. Or Axrendale will

    you know axrendale will....
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4144]Aug 29, 2008
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    hotangelcrazy wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Azula discussion? *cracks knuckles*

    One of the most fascinating scenes in the entire finale was, in my opinion, Azula's hallucination of her mother. I think that this scene provided us more insight into Azula's character than any other in the entire series. My favorite part is this section of the dialouge:

    Ursa: "You're not a monster Azula - you're confused. All your life you've used fear to control everyone around you... like those two friends of yours - Mai and Ty Lee".

    Azula: "Well, what other choice do I have?!!! Trust is for fools! Fear is the only reliable way. Even you fear me".

    Ursa: "I don't fear you Azula - I love you"

    I think that the point of this was to establish that the key essence of Azula's behavior prior to the finale was her belief that fear is the only reliable way - and that love and trust are for fools. Where that idea originated is hard to say - Ursa apparently shares a lot of the blame, but I think Ozai definitely played a role in it. This belief formed the core of a huge part of Azula's character. Once it was gone, she broke down.

    I think one of the essential lines is, "You're not a monster, Azula - you're confused." That just goes to show that Azula is perfectly capable of healing and that it isn't her actual nature.

    I definitely think that she is capable of healing. I think that most of the blame should be put on Ozai because he used her as a tool. Since she was a child she was praised by him for her abilities and knowledge but then in the finale when he left her there it was kind of the last straw. Although Mai and TyLee's betrayal had a big part in her breakdown I think that Ozai's rejection hurt her the most because he was the one person who approved and encouraged her actions. She kinda summed up her anger when she said "You can't treat me like Zuko" because she proved herself time and time again that she was strong and loyal and he was casting her aside like Zuko. Even though he then stated that she would be fire lord I think that it was to late, she had already been rejected. Not to say that her mom had no part in it. Obviously I think that if Ursa had spent more time with her maybe she could have instilled some of the qualities that she possessed, like compassion.


    Libraman reminded me to elaborate. Axrendale hasn't yet, so I've got to. Oh well...

    1.I think that most of the blame should be put on Ozai because he used her as a tool.

    A: Ozai never, ever used Azula. He merely complimented her and favored her. Everything he ever told Azula to do she WANTED to do. Tracking Zuko and the Avatar was her own personal mission. It was to crush Zuko and not because her father told her to.


    2.Since she was a child she was praised by him for her abilities and knowledge but then in the finale when he left her there it was kind of the last straw.

    A: He didn't leave her. In fact, he gave her something she had always wanted. At first it seemed as though he left her, but we soon learned this wasn't the case. Although I agree that Ozai did leave her to claim all the glory, Azula didn't recognize this or told herself it wasn't what she thought it was.


    3.Although Mai and TyLee's betrayal had a big part in her breakdown I think that Ozai's rejection hurt her the most because he was the one person who approved and encouraged her actions.
    A: You are correct about Mai and Ty Lee, and that's very interesting what you said about Ozai. But no where in the finale has Ozai ever rejected Azula (at least in her eyes). I do think Ozai has something to do with her twisted personally, but not her insanity.


    4. She kinda summed up her anger when she said "You can't treat me like Zuko" because she proved herself time and time again that she was strong and loyal and he was casting her aside like Zuko. Even though he then stated that she would be fire lord I think that it was to late, she had already been rejected.

    A: I think that Ozai's quick betrayal did put her over the edge a bit. But that was only a small thing in a long line of betrayals Azula has experienced. I wouldn't put most of the blame on that one moment.


    5. Obviously I think that if Ursa had spent more time with her maybe she could have instilled some of the qualities that she possessed, like compassion.

    A: This is very, very true. Azula learned from her own mother that love doesn't do anything. Azula was under the impression her own mother hated her. This took a huge toll in Azula and furthermore it told her that love doesn't bond people. Because of that large portion of her life filled with seeming abandonment, Azula learned that compassion did nothing. So, if her mother had paid her more attention, I do believe Azula wouldn't be so skeptical about love.



    Does that clarify things a little?
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  • Avatar of libraman_92

    libraman_92

    [4145]Aug 29, 2008
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    well, nice...
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  • Avatar of hotangelcrazy

    hotangelcrazy

    [4146]Aug 29, 2008
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    Hmm, I guess I agree with most of the points you made. I just think that we didn't really she her start to go insane until after she was in the fire nation by herself, without any family or friends left. I'm not saying he had everything to do with it I just think he was like the last straw because if everything had gone according to plan and she had gone with him I don't think the breakdown would have happened quite as soon.

    I was going to write more but then I lost my train of thought. Silly A.D.D. j/k

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    Axrendale

    [4147]Aug 29, 2008
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    I'm back, for more discussion of Azula

    Here is my opinion of the main factors to Azula's downfall:

    Ozai:

    I think that we can safely say that Ozai deserves a lot of the credit for how Azula turned out. It seems likely that he was the one who pressured her, right from the begining, to become who she became. A large part of Azula's character that is often passed over is her insatiable need to please Ozai. The hints are small but they are definitely there - gestures such as re-naming Omashu after him, risking her life to protect him in DoBS. The last one especially - it seems apparent that she really cared about her father. When he appeared ready to abandon her in "The Phoenix King", it really threatened to be the last straw, but Ozai made up for it by amking her Firelord. That gesture apparently meant the world to Azula - she spent some time in the throne room obsessing over the need to live up to her father's expectations, and become the greatest ruler in Fire nation history.

    So Ozai played a two-fold role in Azula's situation - his influence on how she was raised, and in inspiring her obsessive need to please him, to the point where she began to snap under the pressure.

    Ursa:

    Ursa's influence on Azula, or, rather, lack of it, shares most of the credit with Ozai for how Azula turned out. How Ursa actually felt about Azula is rather irrelevant - the fact is that Azula was convinced that Ursa hated and feared her and thought that she was a monster. This no doubt played a huge role in convincing Azula that her mother was right about her being a monster, and drove her even further under her father's influence.

    I think that her failed relationship with her mother lies at the heart of Azula's problems.

    Mai and Ty Lee:

    Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal was effectively the catalyst that began Azula's slide towards insanity. Azula's entire being was founded upon the principle (developed by her mother's rejection) that love and trust are for fools, and that fear is the only reliable method of maintaining loyalty. When Mai and Ty Lee betrayed her, they proved this wrong. One of the central principles in Azula's entire being had been shattered. That had a huge effect on her.

    I'm feeling really tired at the moment - I'll post more about this tommorow.

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    isabelwhatx

    [4148]Aug 29, 2008
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    hotangelcrazy wrote:

    Hmm, I guess I agree with most of the points you made. I just think that we didn't really she her start to go insane until after she was in the fire nation by herself, without any family or friends left. I'm not saying he had everything to do with it I just think he was like the last straw because if everything had gone according to plan and she had gone with him I don't think the breakdown would have happened quite as soon.

    I was going to write more but then I lost my train of thought. Silly A.D.D. j/k


    We realized Azula had gone insane in TSR when she fought Zuko for absolutely no reason. That confirmed it.
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    Axrendale

    [4149]Aug 29, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    hotangelcrazy wrote:

    Hmm, I guess I agree with most of the points you made. I just think that we didn't really she her start to go insane until after she was in the fire nation by herself, without any family or friends left. I'm not saying he had everything to do with it I just think he was like the last straw because if everything had gone according to plan and she had gone with him I don't think the breakdown would have happened quite as soon.

    I was going to write more but then I lost my train of thought. Silly A.D.D. j/k

    We realized Azula had gone insane in TSR when she fought Zuko for absolutely no reason. That confirmed it.

    She hadn't gone insane then - she was still more or less in control of herself. But she was definitely slipping. The actual fall didn't really come until the end of "Into the Inferno", in my opinion. Despite the hallucinations, intense paranoia, etc, Azula still had some control over herself - hence her continued ability to figure out how to take Zuko out of the picture in the fight. The moment when she completely let go of herself occured just after she struck Zuko down.

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    isabelwhatx

    [4150]Aug 29, 2008
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    I'm sorry, I miss worded what I said. I should've said that was what confirmed that she was GOING insane. My bad
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    microwave234

    [4151]Aug 30, 2008
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    I just finished watching the finale and I think it was pretty good.
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    Bigberry69

    [4152]Aug 31, 2008
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    Okay, though I am sure someone may have said something like it. here goes. First of all, I will explain how I got this idea. I was on youtube watching the first episode of Transformers: Beast Wars, one of my favorite childhood shows AND still my favorite Transformers series. First of all, just so you know, in Beast Wars, it isn't Autobots and Decepticons but rather the descendents of them, The Maximals and Predacons, respectively, and it had been millions of years ago that the Autobot Decepticon great war ended. Anyway, in the beginning of the show, a group of Predacons and Maximals that crash-landed on Earth, each led by the descendents of Megatron and Optimus Prime, who are Megatron(a different one) and Optimus Primal, are battling. Optimus at one point is asked why they have to stop them, and says "remember the great war? We don't want that to happen again." And he constantly tries to avoid battle with Megatron saying that the two groups have been living in peace and don't need to fight, but Megatron claims they have merely been waiting for the right moment to strike and the Decepticon ambition for universal domination is still with the Predacons. Anyway, my point is that the spin-off series could be about how the new Avatar, IF it's not Aang still, has to stop a war that may be coming upon them. You know, someone is trying to start a new war and they have to stop it before another war starts that causes chaos to the world again. Just ideas, though.
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    avatar44vb

    [4153]Sep 1, 2008
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    What a GREAT finale! No comparison, whatsoever! I almost cried during so many times, but stopped myself, just in case somebody walked in. My favorite part was the final battle between Aang and Ozai. The creators really gave it their all on that one, and it was exactly the EPIC battle it should have been. I was a little disappointed by the outcome: I wanted Ozai to die, and thought Aang would do it, but boy was I surprised! I understand, though, why there was no other way to end it. The Lion Turtle was hard to understand, and they should have made that clearer, as it was crucial to the ending. Loved the Kataang- such a happy ending! Sokka's art made its appearance again:

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    gilvatar

    [4154]Sep 3, 2008
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    Bigberry69 wrote:
    Okay, though I am sure someone may have said something like it. here goes. First of all, I will explain how I got this idea. I was on youtube watching the first episode of Transformers: Beast Wars, one of my favorite childhood shows AND still my favorite Transformers series. First of all, just so you know, in Beast Wars, it isn't Autobots and Decepticons but rather the descendents of them, The Maximals and Predacons, respectively, and it had been millions of years ago that the Autobot Decepticon great war ended. Anyway, in the beginning of the show, a group of Predacons and Maximals that crash-landed on Earth, each led by the descendents of Megatron and Optimus Prime, who are Megatron(a different one) and Optimus Primal, are battling. Optimus at one point is asked why they have to stop them, and says "remember the great war? We don't want that to happen again." And he constantly tries to avoid battle with Megatron saying that the two groups have been living in peace and don't need to fight, but Megatron claims they have merely been waiting for the right moment to strike and the Decepticon ambition for universal domination is still with the Predacons. Anyway, my point is that the spin-off series could be about how the new Avatar, IF it's not Aang still, has to stop a war that may be coming upon them. You know, someone is trying to start a new war and they have to stop it before another war starts that causes chaos to the world again. Just ideas, though.
    how can robots have decendents?
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    Bigberry69

    [4155]Sep 3, 2008
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    gilvatar wrote:
    Bigberry69 wrote:
    Okay, though I am sure someone may have said something like it. here goes. First of all, I will explain how I got this idea. I was on youtube watching the first episode of Transformers: Beast Wars, one of my favorite childhood shows AND still my favorite Transformers series. First of all, just so you know, in Beast Wars, it isn't Autobots and Decepticons but rather the descendents of them, The Maximals and Predacons, respectively, and it had been millions of years ago that the Autobot Decepticon great war ended. Anyway, in the beginning of the show, a group of Predacons and Maximals that crash-landed on Earth, each led by the descendents of Megatron and Optimus Prime, who are Megatron(a different one) and Optimus Primal, are battling. Optimus at one point is asked why they have to stop them, and says "remember the great war? We don't want that to happen again." And he constantly tries to avoid battle with Megatron saying that the two groups have been living in peace and don't need to fight, but Megatron claims they have merely been waiting for the right moment to strike and the Decepticon ambition for universal domination is still with the Predacons. Anyway, my point is that the spin-off series could be about how the new Avatar, IF it's not Aang still, has to stop a war that may be coming upon them. You know, someone is trying to start a new war and they have to stop it before another war starts that causes chaos to the world again. Just ideas, though.
    how can robots have decendents?
    Transformers are techno-organic. They are made of metal plating with DNA. Really, it's kind of hard to explain, basically just remember that they are techno-organica and so they should be able to reproduce being half organic.
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    gilvatar

    [4156]Sep 3, 2008
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    Bigberry69 wrote:
    gilvatar wrote:
    Bigberry69 wrote:
    Okay, though I am sure someone may have said something like it. here goes. First of all, I will explain how I got this idea. I was on youtube watching the first episode of Transformers: Beast Wars, one of my favorite childhood shows AND still my favorite Transformers series. First of all, just so you know, in Beast Wars, it isn't Autobots and Decepticons but rather the descendents of them, The Maximals and Predacons, respectively, and it had been millions of years ago that the Autobot Decepticon great war ended. Anyway, in the beginning of the show, a group of Predacons and Maximals that crash-landed on Earth, each led by the descendents of Megatron and Optimus Prime, who are Megatron(a different one) and Optimus Primal, are battling. Optimus at one point is asked why they have to stop them, and says "remember the great war? We don't want that to happen again." And he constantly tries to avoid battle with Megatron saying that the two groups have been living in peace and don't need to fight, but Megatron claims they have merely been waiting for the right moment to strike and the Decepticon ambition for universal domination is still with the Predacons. Anyway, my point is that the spin-off series could be about how the new Avatar, IF it's not Aang still, has to stop a war that may be coming upon them. You know, someone is trying to start a new war and they have to stop it before another war starts that causes chaos to the world again. Just ideas, though.
    how can robots have decendents?
    Transformers are techno-organic. They are made of metal plating with DNA. Really, it's kind of hard to explain, basically just remember that they are techno-organica and so they should be able to reproduce being half organic.
    however it's done, I'm sure it's kinky. jk. sorry, couldn't resist.
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    gilvatar

    [4157]Sep 3, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    hotangelcrazy wrote:

    Hmm, I guess I agree with most of the points you made. I just think that we didn't really she her start to go insane until after she was in the fire nation by herself, without any family or friends left. I'm not saying he had everything to do with it I just think he was like the last straw because if everything had gone according to plan and she had gone with him I don't think the breakdown would have happened quite as soon.

    I was going to write more but then I lost my train of thought. Silly A.D.D. j/k

    We realized Azula had gone insane in TSR when she fought Zuko for absolutely no reason. That confirmed it.

    She hadn't gone insane then - she was still more or less in control of herself. But she was definitely slipping. The actual fall didn't really come until the end of "Into the Inferno", in my opinion. Despite the hallucinations, intense paranoia, etc, Azula still had some control over herself - hence her continued ability to figure out how to take Zuko out of the picture in the fight. The moment when she completely let go of herself occured just after she struck Zuko down.

    Well she was definately getting there. didn't you hear her voice "I'm about to celebrate becoming an only child!!" that was creepy. Your right about ItI. Was she chuckling while she was attacking Katara? I swear I remember chuckling.
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    Axrendale

    [4158]Sep 3, 2008
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    gilvatar wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    hotangelcrazy wrote:

    Hmm, I guess I agree with most of the points you made. I just think that we didn't really she her start to go insane until after she was in the fire nation by herself, without any family or friends left. I'm not saying he had everything to do with it I just think he was like the last straw because if everything had gone according to plan and she had gone with him I don't think the breakdown would have happened quite as soon.

    I was going to write more but then I lost my train of thought. Silly A.D.D. j/k

    We realized Azula had gone insane in TSR when she fought Zuko for absolutely no reason. That confirmed it.

    She hadn't gone insane then - she was still more or less in control of herself. But she was definitely slipping. The actual fall didn't really come until the end of "Into the Inferno", in my opinion. Despite the hallucinations, intense paranoia, etc, Azula still had some control over herself - hence her continued ability to figure out how to take Zuko out of the picture in the fight. The moment when she completely let go of herself occurred just after she struck Zuko down.

    Well she was definitely getting there. didn't you hear her voice "I'm about to celebrate becoming an only child!!" that was creepy. Your right about ItI. Was she chuckling while she was attacking Katara? I swear I remember chuckling.

    She wasn't just chuckling - she was laughing her head off. At that point she had completely and utterly snapped - she had let go of herself completely.

    And yes, she was definitely teetering in TSR, but she hadn't quite fallen then. When we next saw her in "The Phoenix King", she had regained control of herself, although that didn't last long.

    Edited on 09/03/2008 6:37pm
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    isabelwhatx

    [4159]Sep 3, 2008
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    I'm debating whether Azula REALLY lost it after her father left or if it was during the famous hair scene.
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    gilvatar

    [4160]Sep 3, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    I'm debating whether Azula REALLY lost it after her father left or if it was during the famous hair scene.
    I think the hair scene was when it became official. that's when she got her deploma and flipped the tassle into koo koo for kookoo puffs-ness.
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