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Official Episode Discussion: Tales of Ba Sing Se (9/29)

  • Avatar of Eman5805

    Eman5805

    [361]Oct 1, 2006
    • member since: 11/05/04
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    Yeah Momo was the ONLY character in the episode who acted like Appa even existed...and also no Dai Li were visible...but I'm betting they're always there...I wonder what's the full??story on Jin...
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  • Avatar of UGamer08

    UGamer08

    [362]Oct 1, 2006
    • member since: 09/14/05
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    UGamer08 wrote:
    UGamer08 wrote:

    UGamer08 wrote:

    For the sake of decency I've??divided this up )

    Let me just start out by saying that it freaks the crap out of me when I find some who shares similar thought process with me. The whole minds think alike just, anyway I think I almost completely agree with your impression, save a few points-

    First off, what is going on with Avatar? When did they feel the need to use all these ???elements??? (yeah, yeah no pun intended ). I mean one of the main reasons I got hooked onto this show is because it tried not what basically everyone else is doing, it tried to stay unique. Yes we???re all aware that they borrowed a bunch of stuff from Miyazaki and Asian culture, but they did it in a creative way, and it wasn???t nearly as obvious as some of the stuff they???ve been doing these last couple of eps. You know what I???m talking about: giving the guy with glasses (at least I think they were supposed to be) a nasally voice, having a trio of mean spirited girls (thank God they can???t use blondes on this show, they would whipped that one out in a second), random testosterone-induced big huge guys with deep voices, the stupid getting thrown out the door sequence (that part almost made me puke, and I can???t even remember if he said ??? and stay out??? or not. If he did???.). Since when did Avatar really need all this crap? M???kay now onto the episode themselves.

    Toph and Katara- It was nice but it really wasn???t all that. They really seem to be forcing those two to be girlfriends. I also didn???t care for that rebuttal (add that to the list) they gave to the girls. What does that truly prove? And latest blind joke, as usually it could???ve have been better if they had said it in a slightly different way. It was obvious that they were trying to get the characters back with that friendly punch at the end, but I kinda liked that.

    Nice input, anyway here's part deux-

    Iroh- Wasn???t nearly as wacked out as I thought it would be. Still I deeply wish they would go back to the ???jolly general??? iroh rather than the ???lets go crazy with cartoon and anime effects on him to make him funnier this season??? ??iroh. ???Yeah. I kinda wish they had saved the dedication for a lets say, longer, episode but the way his character been going and looking at his tale in a whole, it was pretty well-placed.

    Sokka- as expected, the most seriously taken story of the bunch. . Let???s face it, Siege of the North was his high point and as you know it pretty much stops after that. I sincerely thought that they were getting back to it in the Library, but then the very next episode, gone. The one show I???ve seen in a while who actually treats the comic relief guy like a real character and this is what they do to him. Was one of my favorite characters even. I???m not even gonna get into his tale, I barely even watched the thing.

    Part??Tres (I'll stop quoting soon enough)

    Zuko- It was alright. Highly predictable and Zuko???s first line was pretty blatant but still alright. Here???s were I really agree with someone198, what are they doing with Zuko? Seriously what???s with all the ???first the setup, then the litte retort??? jokes? If they had done the stuff they???ve been doing to those two in these last couple of eps in the first season, he would???ve turned into a cartoon villain. Which is completely opposite of what their goal for him was. Why are they doing this to their two most developeable characters? I???m watching it and going, ???Yeah so um, didn???t his mother runaway the same day his grandfather was murdered or somethin???? My best guess (ie clinging to a comforting belief here) is that they???re saving all the good stuff for the last season, it is ???Fire??? after all. To sum it all up, they could???ve done a lot more with his tale if they had had more than 4 minutes.

    Part four. You know when I first wrote all this I thought it was too long (well it is, hence the division) but after seeing some of the reviews for this ep. Huh.... Anyway here's where it starts to get good.-

    Momo- now here???s were I really disagree with someone. I can???t believe I???m saying this, but I think this may have been the best tale. Seriously, you truly didn???t watch it, I???d suggest you do so. Yeah I know, I thought Sokka and Momo???s were gonna be the ???comedy??? tales too (Sokka???s was ) but something pushed me to watch Momo???s, and I???m glad I did. I don???t know how, but they???ve somehow managed to give character development to a friggin monkey. When I saw Appa sneeze and Momo get his name in the first episodes, it nearly drove me away (much like Iroh's soccer scene, and not just the voice).You know what I mean, unless they???re able to talk (and sometimes not even then) the ???animal characters??? of a show usually receive virtually no development (except when they get separated but they???re always back by the end of the episode, still haven't seen that Appa ) ??I now see both Appa and even Momo on the same level as the human characters, and why shouldn???t be that way most of the time? I mean technically, they appear in almost every episode so why shouldn???t they have more development than some one-shot human character? But this show, wow. Having animals that display personality and expressive human traits, kickass. ??I really see this as a very dedicated homage to the asian-fluenced theme of the show (watch Miyazaki???s Princess Mononoke and you???ll see what I mean heck watch any of his movies ) Should it come as no surprise that this one was written by Giancarlo Volpe? It???s a good thing they listed their names, now I know who to look out for.

    All in all, not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. Okay to be honest I think the only one I truly enjoyed was Momo???s as I feel as they should???ve saved Mako???s dedication for a later ep. Then again the way this season???s been going you never know. Now I???m more into analyzing and commenting on things than rating them some yeah, I think I???m just gonna stop here.

    Edited on 10/01/2006 4:20pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of Sasahara

    Sasahara

    [363]Oct 1, 2006
    • member since: 04/18/06
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    Eman5805 wrote:
    Yeah Momo was the ONLY character in the episode who acted like Appa even existed...and also no Dai Li were visible...but I'm betting they're always there...I wonder what's the full??story on Jin...

    Aang was at the zoo looking for a lead to find Appa, and probably for some comfort too, I think.

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  • Avatar of zachman9393

    zachman9393

    [364]Oct 1, 2006
    • member since: 09/19/06
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    A tribute to Mako

    Makato Iwamatsu

    1933 - 2006

    Beloved Actor, Father, and Husband

    We will remember you.

    Leaves from the vine,

    Falling so slow,

    Like fragile, tiny shells,

    Drifting in the foam,

    Little soldier boy,

    Comes marching home,

    Brave soldier boy,

    Come marching home.

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  • Avatar of Colonel_Brian

    Colonel_Brian

    [365]Oct 1, 2006
    • member since: 05/15/06
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    zachman9393 wrote:

    A tribute to Mako

    Makato Iwamatsu

    1933 - 2006

    Beloved Actor, Father, and Husband

    We will remember you.

    Leaves from the vine,

    Falling so slow,

    Like fragile, tiny shells,

    Drifting in the foam,

    Little soldier boy,

    Comes marching home,

    Brave soldier boy,

    Come marching home.

    Well he was an awsome actor I loved his voice and he'll be missed.

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  • Avatar of zachman9393

    zachman9393

    [366]Oct 1, 2006
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    Yah.
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  • Avatar of zachman9393

    zachman9393

    [367]Oct 1, 2006
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    Go to my tribute to Mako thread.?? http://www.tv.com/avatar-the-last-airbender/show/28841/a-tribute-to-mako/topic/13281-518586/msgs.html&msg_id=4809663
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  • Avatar of Eman5805

    Eman5805

    [368]Oct 1, 2006
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    One last thought...wonder what was up with the Haiku lady? she started rippin on Sokka the second he came through the window...must not liked to have her poetry??show interrupted...

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  • Avatar of VincentMagius

    VincentMagius

    [369]Oct 1, 2006
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    Eman5805 wrote:

    One last thought...wonder what was up with the Haiku lady? she started rippin on Sokka the second he came through the window...must not liked to have her poetry show interrupted...



    Might be a pride thing.?? She probably studied her whole life to do haiku poetry and Sokka is able to make them up on the fly with no training whatsoever.?? He probably looks like a country bumpkin to them.
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  • Avatar of tc2r

    tc2r

    [370]Oct 1, 2006
    • member since: 12/12/04
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    Heh.

    Um, for all of you who are wondering why Zuko went "it's complicated", lets add up all the factors pls.

    1. HE'S FIRENATION
    2. HE'S the PRINCE of previously said nation
    3. He's of the mindset that he doesn't WANT to make a home where he is, there therefore he wants as little attachments as possible.
    4. Think about how her life would be with him...
    5. He's only told her a zillion lies, starting with his name...

    so yeah, it's complicated.

    though she is awesome >_>
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  • Avatar of zachman9393

    zachman9393

    [371]Oct 1, 2006
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    Amen to that- still, he and Jin are so cute!!! Even Zuko needs love!!!
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  • Avatar of metalcurtainrod

    metalcurtainrod

    [372]Oct 1, 2006
    • member since: 05/15/06
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    tc2r wrote:


    Heh.

    Um, for all of you who are wondering why Zuko went "it's complicated", lets add up all the factors pls.

    1. HE'S FIRENATION
    2. HE'S the PRINCE of previously said nation
    3. He's of the mindset that he doesn't WANT to make a home where he is, there therefore he wants as little attachments as possible.
    4. Think about how her life would be with him...
    5. He's only told her a zillion lies, starting with his name...

    so yeah, it's complicated.

    though she is awesome >_>


    Yeah I was thinking the same thing but I was too lazy to make a list, so THANK YOU =)
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  • Avatar of Sasahara

    Sasahara

    [373]Oct 2, 2006
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    metalcurtainrod wrote:
    tc2r wrote:

    Heh. Um, for all of you who are wondering why Zuko went "it's complicated", lets add up all the factors pls. 1. HE'S FIRENATION 2. HE'S the PRINCE of previously said nation 3. He's of the mindset that he doesn't WANT to make a home where he is, there therefore he wants as little attachments as possible. 4. Think about how her life would be with him... 5. He's only told her a zillion lies, starting with his name... so yeah, it's complicated. though she is awesome >_>
    Yeah I was thinking the same thing but I was too lazy to make a list, so THANK YOU =)

    Same here. Well said.

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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [374]Oct 2, 2006
    • member since: 10/01/06
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    A complex tapestry of interlocking tales this is not. Instead it is a still life of the normalcy that is born from complacency. A little ill times given the grim and orwellian revelations of 'City of Walls and Secrets' but still a worthy goal. The true failing was not in the placement of the epidsode or its choice of style, but in the execution and tone. The tales each have a kernel to them that had the possibilty to bloom into something significant, only half of them truely bloomed. In other words Its the fact that not enough weight was added to the tales that causes the episode to fall below standard.

    In the first Tale, of Toph and Katara has the core of Tophs tough devil may care exterior masking a person who in her heart really does care. She doesn't extend herself beyond her barriers because if one plays the game they can lose, which to one as confrontational and aggressive as Toph is a painful sensation, so she doesn't try. When Katara coaxes her out of her shell it leaves her very vulnerable and this is the kernell of the story that matters. Now the fact that this only comes out in the final moments and at the hands of Hollywood Cliche 23 (three mean rich girls) weakens the story, as does the rather flippant nature of a day spa. Now I am not going to complain about 'strong feminist characters' submitting to 'pampering' because frankly I think suki said it best, 'I am a warrior but I am also a girl' there is no crime in wanting to feel feminine just as its no crime to want to feel masculine.

    The second Tale of Iroh is the best in my mind and by a quick glance through the reviews, most everyone elses. It almost singlehandedly supports the episode, and I am sure is responsible for the rather silly quantity of 10 reviews. Iroh's tale works for three reasons,it retasks us to the pain underneath all of Iroh 'wise old man' parables and thus refreshes why his relationship with Zuko is very important to him. Second because he has no creepy revelations about the Dai Li to worry about there is no cognitive dissonance concerning 'why are they at a day spa in Minitrue?'. Third and finally it gives us a good look at Lu Ten which means that the relationship with the viewer is not only rehashed but expanded. Of course the fact that it is an incredibly well done piece of voice acting pacing and animation also helps. The bookending of the vignette with the 'Brave Soldier Boy' was marevelous.

    The Third Tale is an example of a seed that didn't bloom at all. Aangs tale is fun and all, I never winced watching it, but if the connection had been better forged as to why aang was in the zoo in the first place the impact would have been FAR greater. The kernel of Aang looking for Appa and thus feeling compelled to help other suffering animals is the emotional core, but the happiness and lack of bleak counterpoints to the happiness of children and animals blights the vine.

    The tale of Sokka, Fourth, similarly fails, even shorter and completely frivoulous it would be excuseable if they had played the Yue note a little harder or had done better with the other stories. Grief needs a counterpoint of hummor and if the rest had held more weight then this would have been a perfect breather.

    The fifth tale is a very good an important one. Zuko has long been a very interesting character who has grown by hairs each episode. What matters is the fact he takes the step no matter how tiny as he is a character unique in that he never backslides with his developement. Furthermore his tale is once again untainted by the whole orwell vibe. His humanization is good and his awkward lies and yet genuine desire to connect are fun counterpoints. The 'its complicated' line reinterates that nothing is every quick or easy for him, unlike Aang he just can't see a baby born or get a peck from a pretty girl and have it all be better. His scars both literal and figurative run deep. Extra points go to his firebending prowess, and another reviewer noted that Zuko can only do for the girl a good deed with her eyes closed, and she likewise him, illustrating the difficulty of coming clean and pride (which as Iroh noted in bitter work is the source of much of Zuko's turmoil).

    Finally momo's tale has some good depth and provides a leaping off point for the next episode. I can't really comment much on this other than its an animal sequence which I don't really care about because animal characterizations fall so easily into cliche and lack verbal interaction which is a hallmark of pretty much everything good. I liked it, don't get me wrong, and it reflected the tone of the episode well.

    Overall its a mixed bag.
    Edited on 10/02/2006 7:29am
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  • Avatar of mister001

    mister001

    [375]Oct 2, 2006
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    You really like long post don't you
    Wasn't mend in a bad way

    Anyway i hope enjoy reading it as much as I did with your reviews etc.
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  • Avatar of ThePipBoy

    ThePipBoy

    [376]Oct 2, 2006
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    Yes, yes I do like long posts. My record is 3.5K words. Though technically It had to be split into 3 posts.
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  • Avatar of UGamer08

    UGamer08

    [377]Oct 2, 2006
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    mister001 wrote:
    You really like long post don't you Wasn't mend in a bad way Anyway i hope enjoy reading it as much as I did with your reviews etc.

    This was a different episode, you can even??tell by some of the reviews. And did you miss mine?

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  • Avatar of Sasahara

    Sasahara

    [378]Oct 2, 2006
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    To ThePipBoy, I'd quote you here but I'd rather save space. Anyway, you certainly put a lot of thought into that review. I can't agree with you on all fronts, but 90% of it??I think you really ??hit on the head. I still think that Sokka's tale was not as bad as you make it out to be, rather, it was great fun.??^_^

    I'll say??something in defense of cliches (mind, I don't really go for them): they communicate directly and quickly. When the writers have to cram a lot into a small time, brevity goes before elaboration. I'm not saying it's better (certainly creativity is better), and that the 3 mean girls thing wasn't predictable, but it served its purpose.

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  • Avatar of sadist_activst

    sadist_activst

    [379]Oct 2, 2006
    • member since: 08/02/06
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    UGamer08 wrote:
    UGamer08 wrote:
    UGamer08 wrote:

    UGamer08 wrote:

    For the sake of decency I've??divided this up )

    Let me just start out by saying that it freaks the crap out of me when I find some who shares similar thought process with me. The whole minds think alike just, anyway I think I almost completely agree with your impression, save a few points-

    First off, what is going on with Avatar? When did they feel the need to use all these ???elements??? (yeah, yeah no pun intended ). I mean one of the main reasons I got hooked onto this show is because it tried not what basically everyone else is doing, it tried to stay unique. Yes we???re all aware that they borrowed a bunch of stuff from Miyazaki and Asian culture, but they did it in a creative way, and it wasn???t nearly as obvious as some of the stuff they???ve been doing these last couple of eps. You know what I???m talking about: giving the guy with glasses (at least I think they were supposed to be) a nasally voice, having a trio of mean spirited girls (thank God they can???t use blondes on this show, they would whipped that one out in a second), random testosterone-induced big huge guys with deep voices, the stupid getting thrown out the door sequence (that part almost made me puke, and I can???t even remember if he said ??? and stay out??? or not. If he did???.). Since when did Avatar really need all this crap? M???kay now onto the episode themselves.

    Toph and Katara- It was nice but it really wasn???t all that. They really seem to be forcing those two to be girlfriends. I also didn???t care for that rebuttal (add that to the list) they gave to the girls. What does that truly prove? And latest blind joke, as usually it could???ve have been better if they had said it in a slightly different way. It was obvious that they were trying to get the characters back with that friendly punch at the end, but I kinda liked that.

    Nice input, anyway here's part deux-

    Iroh- Wasn???t nearly as wacked out as I thought it would be. Still I deeply wish they would go back to the ???jolly general??? iroh rather than the ???lets go crazy with cartoon and anime effects on him to make him funnier this season??? ??iroh. ???Yeah. I kinda wish they had saved the dedication for a lets say, longer, episode but the way his character been going and looking at his tale in a whole, it was pretty well-placed.

    Sokka- as expected, the most seriously taken story of the bunch. . Let???s face it, Siege of the North was his high point and as you know it pretty much stops after that. I sincerely thought that they were getting back to it in the Library, but then the very next episode, gone. The one show I???ve seen in a while who actually treats the comic relief guy like a real character and this is what they do to him. Was one of my favorite characters even. I???m not even gonna get into his tale, I barely even watched the thing.

    Part??Tres (I'll stop quoting soon enough)

    Zuko- It was alright. Highly predictable and Zuko???s first line was pretty blatant but still alright. Here???s were I really agree with someone198, what are they doing with Zuko? Seriously what???s with all the ???first the setup, then the litte retort??? jokes? If they had done the stuff they???ve been doing to those two in these last couple of eps in the first season, he would???ve turned into a cartoon villain. Which is completely opposite of what their goal for him was. Why are they doing this to their two most developeable characters? I???m watching it and going, ???Yeah so um, didn???t his mother runaway the same day his grandfather was murdered or somethin???? My best guess (ie clinging to a comforting belief here) is that they???re saving all the good stuff for the last season, it is ???Fire??? after all. To sum it all up, they could???ve done a lot more with his tale if they had had more than 4 minutes.

    Part four. You know when I first wrote all this I thought it was too long (well it is, hence the division) but after seeing some of the reviews for this ep. Huh.... Anyway here's where it starts to get good.-

    Momo- now here???s were I really disagree with someone. I can???t believe I???m saying this, but I think this may have been the best tale. Seriously, you truly didn???t watch it, I???d suggest you do so. Yeah I know, I thought Sokka and Momo???s were gonna be the ???comedy??? tales too (Sokka???s was ) but something pushed me to watch Momo???s, and I???m glad I did. I don???t know how, but they???ve somehow managed to give character development to a friggin monkey. When I saw Appa sneeze and Momo get his name in the first episodes, it nearly drove me away (much like Iroh's soccer scene, and not just the voice).You know what I mean, unless they???re able to talk (and sometimes not even then) the ???animal characters??? of a show usually receive virtually no development (except when they get separated but they???re always back by the end of the episode, still haven't seen that Appa ) ??I now see both Appa and even Momo on the same level as the human characters, and why shouldn???t be that way most of the time? I mean technically, they appear in almost every episode so why shouldn???t they have more development than some one-shot human character? But this show, wow. Having animals that display personality and expressive human traits, kickass. ??I really see this as a very dedicated homage to the asian-fluenced theme of the show (watch Miyazaki???s Princess Mononoke and you???ll see what I mean heck watch any of his movies ) Should it come as no surprise that this one was written by Giancarlo Volpe? It???s a good thing they listed their names, now I know who to look out for.

    All in all, not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. Okay to be honest I think the only one I truly enjoyed was Momo???s as I feel as they should???ve saved Mako???s dedication for a later ep. Then again the way this season???s been going you never know. Now I???m more into analyzing and commenting on things than rating them some yeah, I think I???m just gonna stop here.

    By the way,

    My new favorite ship.

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