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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Official Character Relationship Discussion 4

Sokka ship?

  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4541]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 06/30/08
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Aang already sacrificed Katara to get into the Avatar state. As amazingly explained by Axrendale a while back, Aang left Katara to defend herself in order to stop the other troops. He chose to stop them instead of protecting her. That was his sacrifice. As told in The Awakening, Aang had a lot of energy twisted up around his wound. When the rock hit him in the back, the energy was unleashed and therefore allowing him to access the Avatar state. The giant lion-turtle has been foreshadowed since the beginning. It was mentioned in the pilot, The Library, and another episode that I can't remember at the moment.

    In case anyone's interested, here it is again:

    Basically, in order to answer the question of how Aang was to both give up his attachment and still be able to fall in love with Katara, we need to define exactly what "attachment" means. At no point did the guru ever say that Aang needed to stop loving Katara - he just had to learn to let go of his attachment to her. If attachment can be satisfactorily defined in a manner where a person who has let go of it can still be in love, then the argument is over. Since Avatar has been decidedly vague on this point (no doubt intentionally), we are forced to turn to an alternative source of wisdom; a franchise that has more experience in the ways of "attachments" than you can poke a stick at; the source of all my comparisons to the movies and the spin-off series: Star Wars.

    Anyone who has watched the Star Wars movies is familiar with the fact that the jedi too seem to have a bit of a problem with "attachment to people" (what with it leading to the dark side and all). What not so many people are aware of is that the jedi do in fact find a solution to this problem in the series of novels that tell the story of what happens after "Return of the Jedi". Here is a direct quote from one of the novels:

    "That's what attachment is, isn't it? It's not loving somebody. It's not marrying somebody. It's not having kids. It's being where, if somthing goes wrong, there's nothing left of you. It's being where, if the person you love dies, you start functioning like a droid that's been fitted with a restraining bolt".

    I think that this definition could easily apply to avatar. Letting go of attachment doesn't mean loving what you were attached to any the less. It means that if you have to make a choice between saving the person you love and saving the world, you have to be able to accept the pain of letting go of your love in order to save the world. After that, you can mourn the person you loved, but you have to be able to keep on living and get on with your life. You can feel the attachment, but you cannot allow it to have any hold over you.

    What evidence do I have that this is the right definition? Simple; it fits the facts.

    Let us consider the scenarios we have seen so far. In "The Avatar and the Firelord", Avatar Roku perfectly displayed this ability to "let go" of attachment. When the volcano errupted, his first instinct was to get his wife to safety. But he didn't. As much as he wanted to put her first, he knew that his duty as the Avatar was to hold back the lava until the entire village had been evacuated, and so he let go of her hand, and went back to make his stand.

    Aang didn't need to stop loving Katara; he just needed to learn to put the world before her. In CoD, Aang was forced to abandon his urge to protect Katara so that he could summon the Avatar state. he had to take the risk that she wouldn't survive in order to do his duty. When we get to "The Awakening", Aang shows this ability again, when despite his obvious continued feelings for Katara he leaves her in order to do his duty.

    There. That's my opinion on what Bryke have tried to set up for us. Before anyone complains that it wasn't very well explained, I would like to say that I love series that force their fans to figure things out for themselves. It keeps things interesting.

    Edited on 08/07/2008 8:51pm
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  • Avatar of LondonParisNYC

    LondonParisNYC

    [4542]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 07/21/08
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 1,343
    Axrendale wrote:

    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Aang already sacrificed Katara to get into the Avatar state. As amazingly explained by Axrendale a while back, Aang left Katara to defend herself in order to stop the other troops. He chose to stop them instead of protecting her. That was his sacrifice. As told in The Awakening, Aang had a lot of energy twisted up around his wound. When the rock hit him in the back, the energy was unleashed and therefore allowing him to access the Avatar state. The giant lion-turtle has been foreshadowed since the beginning. It was mentioned in the pilot, The Library, and another episode that I can't remember at the moment.

    In case anyone's interested, here it is again:

    Basically, in order to answer the question of how Aang was to both give up his attachment and still be able to fall in love with Katara, we need to define exactly what "attachment" means. At no point did the guru ever say that Aang needed to stop loving Katara - he just had to learn to let go of his attachment to her. If attachment can be satisfactorily defined in a manner where a person who has let go of it can still be in love, then the argument is over. Since Avatar has been decidedly vague on this point (no doubt intentionally), we are forced to turn to an alternative source of wisdom; a franchise that has more experience in the ways of "attachments" than you can poke a stick at; the source of all my comparisons to the movies and the spin-off series: Star Wars.

    Anyone who has watched the Star Wars movies is familiar with the fact that the jedi too seem to have a bit of a problem with "attachment to people" (what with it leading to the dark side and all). What not so many people are aware of is that the jedi do in fact find a solution to this problem in the series of novels that tell the story of what happens after "Return of the Jedi". Here is a direct quote from one of the novels:

    "That's what attachment is, isn't it? It's not loving somebody. It's not marrying somebody. It's not having kids. It's being where, if somthing goes wrong, there's nothing left of you. It's being where, if the person you love dies, you start functioning like a droid that's been fitted with a restraining bolt".

    I think that this definition could easily apply to avatar. Letting go of attachment doesn't mean loving what you were attached to any the less. It means that if you have to make a choice between saving the person you love and saving the world, you have to be able to accept the pain of letting go of your love in order to save the world. After that, you can mourn the person you loved, but you have to be able to keep on living and get on with your life. You can feel the attachment, but you cannot allow it to have any hold over you.

    What evidence do I have that this is the right definition? Simple; it fits the facts.

    Let us consider the scenarios we have seen so far. In "The Avatar and the Firelord, Avatar Roku perfectly displayed this ability to "let go" of attachment. When the volcano errupted, his first instinct was to get his wife to safety. But he didn't. As much as he wanted to put her first, he knew that his duty as the Avatar was to hold back the lava until the entire village had been evacuated, and so he let go of her hand, and went back to make his stand.

    Aang didn't need to stop loving Katara; he just needed to learn to put the world before her. In CoD, Aang was forced to abandon his urge to protect Katara so that he could summon the Avatar state. he had to take the risk that she wouldn't survive in order to do his duty. When we get to "The Awakening", Aang shows this ability again, when despite his obvious continued feelings for Katara he leaves her in order to do his duty.

    There. That's my opinion on what Bryke have tried to set up for us. Before anyone complains that it wasn't very well explained, I would like to say that I love series that force their fans to figure things out for themselves. It keeps things interesting.

    Ax...your posts are always so long lol. like essays.

    I agree. I don't understand why everyone's like "ohhh well he didn't let her go all the way." He just need to realize that interests of the world come before his own personal life. He never let Katara get in the way of doing what he had to do after he realized this.

    it's not suppose to interpreted as so litereally. I feel like people are seeing this as Katara dangling over a cliff and he must either reach down and save her or resuce the world. It's not that litteral.

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  • Avatar of carlsonem

    carlsonem

    [4543]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 12/23/06
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    doomed_soul89 wrote:
    carlsonem wrote:
    LondonParisNYC wrote:

    carlsonem wrote:
    The writer did not originally intend the jabs. However it caught on by the fans so they saw an opportunity. The newer jabs (season2-3) are an example of irony. We think it will happen but it doesn't. That was just the creators messing with the fans and keeping their interest. It is really a good marketing strategy.

    Ohhhhhhh, yes very clever.

    You have to look at it from a business perspective to understand the creators intent. People stay interested and make more fanvids which means free advertising for Nick. It is win win for everybody.
    yea, i still say is natural character development, avatar was already a success and if you heard the comentry on the original pilot they don't seem like money grubbers
    And barack Obama doesnt seem like a socialist...but he is deep down. The fact is that the creators control the character development. So when they saw a fans perspective of the Zuko Katara thing, that led to an opportunity. They would have been stupid not to take the path i believe they did. If you have a cjoice of being rich or poor you would want to be rich. That is they same idea here. The option was there and they took the smart route. They had no intention of carrying that shipping out. It just created a good business opportunity that could not be ignored.
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  • Avatar of LondonParisNYC

    LondonParisNYC

    [4544]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 07/21/08
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    carlsonem wrote:
    doomed_soul89 wrote:
    carlsonem wrote:
    LondonParisNYC wrote:

    carlsonem wrote:
    The writer did not originally intend the jabs. However it caught on by the fans so they saw an opportunity. The newer jabs (season2-3) are an example of irony. We think it will happen but it doesn't. That was just the creators messing with the fans and keeping their interest. It is really a good marketing strategy.

    Ohhhhhhh, yes very clever.

    You have to look at it from a business perspective to understand the creators intent. People stay interested and make more fanvids which means free advertising for Nick. It is win win for everybody.
    yea, i still say is natural character development, avatar was already a success and if you heard the comentry on the original pilot they don't seem like money grubbers
    And barack Obama doesnt seem like a socialist...but he is deep down. The fact is that the creators control the character development. So when they saw a fans perspective of the Zuko Katara thing, that led to an opportunity. They would have been stupid not to take the path i believe they did. If you have a cjoice of being rich or poor you would want to be rich. That is they same idea here. The option was there and they took the smart route. They had no intention of carrying that shipping out. It just created a good business opportunity that could not be ignored.

    Although i think it's a good theory, the creators were more interested in the integrity of the show then the money in their pockets.

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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4545]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 11/30/07
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    I think more people see it like, "KILL KATARA OR GIVE UP BEING AVATAR! MWAHAHAHAH " But seriously, some people are like that. It's not that intense. Aang just has to understand that being the Avatar is more important than Katara.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4546]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 06/30/08
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    Zutarians who complain about the Lion-Turtle are being somewhat hypocitical, seeing as there was far more forshadowing for the Lion-Turtle than there was for Zutara. Most of the so called "Zutara forshadowing" is fairly weak in any case, and can usually be countered with a Kataang example from the same episode. A prime example of this is Katara's betrothal necklace. Believe it or not, some Zuatarians actually tried to pass off Zuko's posession of the necklace as forshadowing for Zutara. Never mind that Aang had lovingly attempted to fashion Katara a replacement (one of the many acts of endearment that made me ship Kataang). Also never mind that after Aang had retrieved the necklace from Zuko, the writers made a point of inserting a scene where Aang gives a betrothal necklace to Katara. Seriously, if that wasn't forshadowing, I don't know what was.

    BTW, I have never held stock in the whole "opposite attract" thing.

    Edited on 08/07/2008 8:55pm
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  • Avatar of LondonParisNYC

    LondonParisNYC

    [4547]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 07/21/08
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    I think more people see it like, "KILL KATARA OR GIVE UP BEING AVATAR! MWAHAHAHAH " But seriously, some people are like that. It's not that intense. Aang just has to understand that being the Avatar is more important than Katara.

    exactly, because alot of people more as a "one way or the other" rather than "a delicate a balence"

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  • Avatar of LondonParisNYC

    LondonParisNYC

    [4548]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 07/21/08
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    Axrendale wrote:

    Zutarians who complain about the Lion-Turtle are being somewhat hypocitical, seeing as there was far more forshadowing for the Lion-Turtle than there was for Zutara. Mostt of the so called "Zutara forshadowing" is fairly weak in any case, and can usually be countered with a Kataang example from the same episode. A prime example of this is Katara's betrothal necklace. Believe it or not, some Zuatarians actually tried to pass off Zuko's posession of the necklace as forshadowing for Zutara. Never mind that Aang had lovingly attempted to fashion Katara a replacement (one of the many acts of endearment that made me ship Kataang). Also never mind that after Aang had retrieved the necklace from Zuko, the writers made a point of inserting a scene where Aang gives a betrothal necklace to Katara. Seriously, if that wasn't forshadowing, I don't know what was.

    BTW, I have never held stock in the whole "opposite attract" thing.

    I honestly don't believe there was like ever Zutara foreshadowing, in the classic sense of the word. I never said that. But there was alot of lampoonery, which in many cases is foreshadowing.

    At the same time you could interpret it as satire.

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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4549]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 11/30/07
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    Axrendale wrote:

    Zutarians who complain about the Lion-Turtle are being somewhat hypocitical, seeing as there was far more forshadowing for the Lion-Turtle than there was for Zutara. Mostt of the so called "Zutara forshadowing" is fairly weak in any case, and can usually be countered with a Kataang example from the same episode. A prime example of this is Katara's betrothal necklace. Believe it or not, some Zuatarians actually tried to pass off Zuko's posession of the necklace as forshadowing for Zutara. Never mind that Aang had lovingly attempted to fashion Katara a replacement (one of the many acts of endearment that made me ship Kataang). Also never mind that after Aang had retrieved the necklace from Zuko, the writers made a point of inserting a scene where Aang gives a betrothal necklace to Katara. Seriously, if that wasn't forshadowing, I don't know what was.

    LondonParisNYC wrote:

    BTW, I have never held stock in the whole "opposite attract" thing.

    I agree with you on many accounts. The Zutarians will take something and make it another thing. And even though sometimes they might be correct, we've got more Kataang moments. It's like a 25:1 ratio. [QUOTE="LondonParisNYC]exactly, because alot of people more as a "one way or the other" rather than "a delicate a balence"
    True. Sometimes it's hard to realize that something isn't totally black and white.
    Edited on 08/07/2008 8:54pm
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  • Avatar of carlsonem

    carlsonem

    [4550]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 12/23/06
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    LondonParisNYC wrote:
    carlsonem wrote:
    doomed_soul89 wrote:
    carlsonem wrote:
    LondonParisNYC wrote:

    carlsonem wrote:
    The writer did not originally intend the jabs. However it caught on by the fans so they saw an opportunity. The newer jabs (season2-3) are an example of irony. We think it will happen but it doesn't. That was just the creators messing with the fans and keeping their interest. It is really a good marketing strategy.

    Ohhhhhhh, yes very clever.

    You have to look at it from a business perspective to understand the creators intent. People stay interested and make more fanvids which means free advertising for Nick. It is win win for everybody.
    yea, i still say is natural character development, avatar was already a success and if you heard the comentry on the original pilot they don't seem like money grubbers
    And barack Obama doesnt seem like a socialist...but he is deep down. The fact is that the creators control the character development. So when they saw a fans perspective of the Zuko Katara thing, that led to an opportunity. They would have been stupid not to take the path i believe they did. If you have a cjoice of being rich or poor you would want to be rich. That is they same idea here. The option was there and they took the smart route. They had no intention of carrying that shipping out. It just created a good business opportunity that could not be ignored.

    Although i think it's a good theory, the creators were more interested in the integrity of the show then the money in their pockets.

    At the end of the day, it is up to Viacom(the parent company). Those guys are greedy. The craetors have to take orders sometimes.
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [4551]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 11/30/07
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    I HATE Viacom. They are trying to take away any anonymity we ever had on the internet. *grrrrr*
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  • Avatar of carlsonem

    carlsonem

    [4552]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 12/23/06
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    I HATE Viacom. They are trying to take away any anonymity we ever had on the internet. *grrrrr*
    That is America today. Sue the crap out of someone until they rmove content that is infringed upon.
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  • Avatar of doomed_soul89

    doomed_soul89

    [4553]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 03/20/07
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    carlsonem wrote:
    doomed_soul89 wrote:
    carlsonem wrote:
    LondonParisNYC wrote:

    carlsonem wrote:
    The writer did not originally intend the jabs. However it caught on by the fans so they saw an opportunity. The newer jabs (season2-3) are an example of irony. We think it will happen but it doesn't. That was just the creators messing with the fans and keeping their interest. It is really a good marketing strategy.

    Ohhhhhhh, yes very clever.

    You have to look at it from a business perspective to understand the creators intent. People stay interested and make more fanvids which means free advertising for Nick. It is win win for everybody.
    yea, i still say is natural character development, avatar was already a success and if you heard the comentry on the original pilot they don't seem like money grubbers
    And barack Obama doesnt seem like a socialist...but he is deep down. The fact is that the creators control the character development. So when they saw a fans perspective of the Zuko Katara thing, that led to an opportunity. They would have been stupid not to take the path i believe they did. If you have a cjoice of being rich or poor you would want to be rich. That is they same idea here. The option was there and they took the smart route. They had no intention of carrying that shipping out. It just created a good business opportunity that could not be ignored.

    avatar was already a sucess though, what they would gain from doing that would be marginal, and I've written a few fan fics and some character developments happen naturally and unintentionally, they don't have full control over the development, not after developing a character to a certain point, and of course they had no intention of carrying the shipping out because Zutara can only be a fling as long as Mai and Zuko are together and the only way to break them up would be to turn Zuko into a jerk (which would make Katara not like him) or kill Mai and with the censorship that's just not going to happen, likewise with the censorship Katara and Zuko aren't going to have drunken sex, the main reason Zutara can't happen is because it's a kid's show not because of the creators intentions
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  • Avatar of carlsonem

    carlsonem

    [4554]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 12/23/06
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    doomed_soul89 wrote:
    carlsonem wrote:
    doomed_soul89 wrote:
    carlsonem wrote:
    LondonParisNYC wrote:

    carlsonem wrote:
    The writer did not originally intend the jabs. However it caught on by the fans so they saw an opportunity. The newer jabs (season2-3) are an example of irony. We think it will happen but it doesn't. That was just the creators messing with the fans and keeping their interest. It is really a good marketing strategy.

    Ohhhhhhh, yes very clever.

    You have to look at it from a business perspective to understand the creators intent. People stay interested and make more fanvids which means free advertising for Nick. It is win win for everybody.
    yea, i still say is natural character development, avatar was already a success and if you heard the comentry on the original pilot they don't seem like money grubbers
    And barack Obama doesnt seem like a socialist...but he is deep down. The fact is that the creators control the character development. So when they saw a fans perspective of the Zuko Katara thing, that led to an opportunity. They would have been stupid not to take the path i believe they did. If you have a cjoice of being rich or poor you would want to be rich. That is they same idea here. The option was there and they took the smart route. They had no intention of carrying that shipping out. It just created a good business opportunity that could not be ignored.
    avatar was already a sucess though, what they would gain from doing that would be marginal, and I've written a few fan fics and some character developments happen naturally and unintentionally, they don't have full control over the development, not after developing a character to a certain point, and of course they had no intention of carrying the shipping out because Zutara can only be a fling as long as Mai and Zuko are together and the only way to break them up would be to turn Zuko into a jerk (which would make Katara not like him) or kill Mai and with the censorship that's just not going to happen, likewise with the censorship Katara and Zuko aren't going to have drunken sex, the main reason Zutara can't happen is because it's a kid's show not because of the creators intentions
    Look, i understand your point and i want to believe it, but that isnt the way i see the world. I see the politics behind everything. What is the point of any tv show? To entertain people? NO. It is to generate revenue(money) for the network. Just because something has be successful that doesn't mean it cant be better. I wish it could be the way you so poetically described it. But this is fantasy and we live in reality. We use tv shows to escape from reality. However reality still controls this fantasy world. And we all know money makes the world go round.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4555]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 06/30/08
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    Is it just me, or are all the Zutara shippers people who like Zuko better than Aang? And are all the Kataangers people who like Aang better than Zuko? Not only does this match with what several Zutarians and Kataangers have said on the subject, but it also makes sense - it is only natural that people will think that the romance involving the character they prefer is the better, more likely one - as the old saying goes: "People see what they want to see".

    So let's do a quick round off with who you like better as a character - Zuko or Aang, and which ship you like better - Kataang or Zutara.

    I'll go first. I like Aang's character better. Zuko's story was great, and I love his character, but just not as much as I like Aang's.

    So far, the theory is holding out then.

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  • Avatar of LondonParisNYC

    LondonParisNYC

    [4556]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 07/21/08
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    Axrendale wrote:

    Is it just me, or are all the Zutara shippers people who like Zuko better than Aang? And are all the Kataangers people who like Aang better than Zuko? Not only does this match with what several Zutarians and Kataangers have said on the subject, but it also makes sense - it is only natural that people will think that the romance involving the character they prefer is the better, more likely one - as the old saying goes: "People see what they want to see".

    So let's do a quick round off with who you like better as a character - Zuko or Aang, and which ship you like better - Kataang or Zutara.

    I'll go first. I like Aang's character better. Zuko's story was great, and I love his character, but just not as much as I like Aang's.

    So far, the theory is holding out then.

    Zuko, Zutara.

    unrelated though. thre reason i ship them isn't because i like Zuko more, it's because i like them as a pair because i think it's a good match.

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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4557]Aug 7, 2008
    • member since: 06/30/08
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    LondonParisNYC wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Is it just me, or are all the Zutara shippers people who like Zuko better than Aang? And are all the Kataangers people who like Aang better than Zuko? Not only does this match with what several Zutarians and Kataangers have said on the subject, but it also makes sense - it is only natural that people will think that the romance involving the character they prefer is the better, more likely one - as the old saying goes: "People see what they want to see".

    So let's do a quick round off with who you like better as a character - Zuko or Aang, and which ship you like better - Kataang or Zutara.

    I'll go first. I like Aang's character better. Zuko's story was great, and I love his character, but just not as much as I like Aang's.

    So far, the theory is holding out then.

    Zuko, Zutara.

    unrelated though. thre reason i ship them isn't because i like Zuko more, it's because i like them as a pair because i think it's a good match.

    You may think that it is unrelated, but in reality things like this rarely are.

    When all is said and done, shipping is mainly about preferences. For all our long posts about things like compatibility and opposites attracting, at heart we ship simply becuase we made a sub-conscious decision about which ship we like better, plain and simple. You can look as hard as you want, but you will never find a Kataanger who shipsonly because they think it would make more sense story-wise, or a Zutarian.

    So let's wait for now, and see what sort of results this draws. If all the Kataangers say Aang, and all the Zutarians say Zuko, I think we can assume that I'm onto something.

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  • Avatar of zairachka

    zairachka

    [4558]Aug 8, 2008
    • member since: 07/29/08
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    Axrendale wrote:

    Is it just me, or are all the Zutara shippers people who like Zuko better than Aang? And are all the Kataangers people who like Aang better than Zuko? Not only does this match with what several Zutarians and Kataangers have said on the subject, but it also makes sense - it is only natural that people will think that the romance involving the character they prefer is the better, more likely one - as the old saying goes: "People see what they want to see".

    So let's do a quick round off with who you like better as a character - Zuko or Aang, and which ship you like better - Kataang or Zutara.

    I'll go first. I like Aang's character better. Zuko's story was great, and I love his character, but just not as much as I like Aang's.

    So far, the theory is holding out then.

    well, although i think ur theory is mostly true, its not with me.

    i LOVE zuko, but I also LOVE Kataang kuz i know that aang loves katara and vice versa, and i know that zuko loves mai and vice versa

    but the fact that i like Mai too might throw some things off

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  • Avatar of Chairunisa

    Chairunisa

    [4559]Aug 8, 2008
    • member since: 07/22/08
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 68

    It's not what I mean when I mentioned about Aang's love for katara vs cakra...it's not like a choice between 2 fruits... if you eat Apel your mother will die but if you eat banana than your farther will die so better not to eat both othem than you will die... it's not like that.

    I read some manga and one of my fav is Inuyasha ( sorry to compare ) I know that Inu will be together with kage but there is strugling and fighting for each character to develop their feeling..you know..just their holding hand in hand we can see how much they mean to each other...not just kissing each other which not so good for the kid show..

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    Chairunisa

    [4560]Aug 8, 2008
    • member since: 07/22/08
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 68
    And also from my point of you...Aang go through avatar state in COD after he see katara can not handle the situationn...not put the owrld first than katara..sorry if I am wrong
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