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Yeah. But he is ignorant of one crucial flaw: His "mission" was--and is--a shameful lie. The Tallest didn't even know Earth existed until Zim contacted them.

Edited on 04/18/2010 9:19pm

In one un-aired episode, when Dib gave up his pursuit of the strange and unsual in favor of "real science" like his dad, it turned out that Zim had no more motivation to attack Earth. He didn't find out the secret behind his mission, but he did miss having an adversary to mess with and so, it left him sort of empty to know that no one would going to bother trying to stop him.

Yeah, but, with no finished script for us to analize on how the interactions and thoughts happened we can't really bring it in to analize Zim's intelligence.

WWinnieF wrote:

I don't know. Invader Skooge seems a tad far more slower and trusting than even Zim, so that would be pushing things.

Nah, Skooge at least thinks, i mean when he was sent to the rat planet he was really really sad. And other times he seems to acknowledge that he's everyone's b*tch, but he tries Despite that, knowing there must be something he can do to be acknowledged after all the right he's done so far. Unlike Zim who just doesn't know.

WWinnieF wrote:

Zim did too, long ago, or else he wouldn't have had the position he once had.

Actually, he was just an invader. That's it, he got to where he was because his PAK was programmed to it, then Unstoppable Ruin 1 happens and Zim uses a giant mecha to destroy most of the planet, making everyone realise he's insane and must not be left close to military, which despite their attempt to just send him to be a fry cook it didn't work.

WWinnieF wrote:

He was a defect, sure, but he was not an utter disgrace, for if he was, he would've just been left to rot before the show even started. Granted, The Tallest did leave Zim to rot in the show's continuity by stranding him on Earth, but that was after he had already further damaged what reputation as an Invader that he had left.

Frycook episode.

WWinnieF wrote:

You sure? Even as a high-authority, people--even stupid ones--would expect some sort of proof to his claims.

Well yeah of course there'd be a need for proof, but let's say Dib gets proof then nobody would believe him.

WWinnieF wrote:

Who's to say that she's okay with it? She doesn't do much outside of playing her Game Slave, threaten Dib, and chortle at Zim's infantile attempts to conquer a planet that's already dumber than a box of rocks.

She also appears to do fine in school and stuff.

WWinnieF wrote:

I am sure that the part that makes her care would probably wish it to be longer, but her inner darkness quells that sweet side and keeps it locked away.
She has one. The mind is best concerned with facts and logic, whereas feelings are largely matters of the heart. Gaz's may be small, shriveled up, and colored an inky black, but it is there.

See, this is now an Alternate Character Interpretation. Gaz is a ruthless demon child on the outside, anything else isn't Confirmed, you may think of it, but it's your interpretation.

WWinnieF wrote:

You sure? If the rest of humanity were smarter and up to her standards, she might care, but since she--evil or not--is the only one in the show with some sense about her (even Dib and Zim have their own levels of crazy), she just keeps to herself.

Yes, but they are not close to her level of intelligence therefor she doesn't care.

WWinnieF wrote:

Eric Trueheart, one of the series writers, has stated in a commentary on the final Invader ZIM DVD that, if the series had not been cancelled, a potential storyline might have included Dib going on a quest to find out why his life was so horrible and discovering he was an artificial creation of Professor Membrane's making.

Aah, that's interesting.

WWinnieF wrote:

This can be inferred from Dib's likeness to his father and in the episode Dib's Wonderful Life of Doom, the older Dib looks very much like his dad. The unfinished series finale has him leading an army to defeat Zim. In the episode Dark Harvest, Dib mentions to his classmate, Torque Smacky that he has memories of being abducted as a baby, "...Perhaps to create some kind of genius super baby?", though he also states his memory on this is unclear.

Ok... that's not related at all to our Discussion though.

WWinnieF wrote:

I was implying that the Professor himself might have had detractors when he was young--like his "poor insane son"--but became a celebrated scientific mind, because he went out to prove his theories and they wound up being accurate for the time. Dib is now doing the same with his belief in what most feel are intangible beings and with science always open to alterations and change in general, Dib could--with time--prove himself correct, garning the accolades he haspainstakeningly worked so diligently for.

Ah, that's interesting... but, it's just your theory.

WWinnieF wrote:

Well, the VAs do have more clout than fans themselves do. So really, their liking towards that ship throws more actual support towards the ship, regardless of what Jhonen thinks,

No. VAs under no condition overrule the creator. It doesn't support it just makes that your ship has famous supporters, but doesn't make it valid instantly.

WWinnieF wrote:

since he himself became distant from the entire brand after he saw what Nick executives did to his vision through editing. Really, the show was never his once Nick got its hands on it, because neither Nick brass nor Jhonen could see eye-to-eye, and as a result, the show was canned due to it dark nature and "creative differences", which finally ended in a fed-up Jhonen relinquishing all ownership to Nick. In other words, Nick now owns the franchise outright and can do with it what the company chooses, good or bad.

I'd like to bring in my wild wangoo card:

Epic Disney show with a rich story, great dialogue, awesome character development and other great aspects, truly it was a magnificent show, so much that after a single 13-episode season it got picked up for a 67 episode second season. Sadly Disney made a Third season.

What's bad about that? Well you see the creator Greg Weisman was only involved in the first two episodes of the season, then Disney did whatever they wanted.

It got axed due to bad ratings after around 20 episodes. The episodes sometime after were officially not part of the continuity of Gargoyles by Greg Weisman himself, and a comic series continued the story from where season 2 left.

So, Jhonen still is the author and what he says of the series goes.

WWinnieF wrote:

I don't know. The fact that they have a concept of love--albeit a twisted one (ex: Zim caring for GIR, The Tallest, and his mission; The Tallest loving power, status, and food; Tak enjoying her revenge)--leads one to wonder. I mean, people on Earth can be born from tubes just like Irkens are (hence the term "test tube babies"), but they can learn to show affection, so why should Irkens--upon having a similar start-out--be any different?

Not really, no, they don't have reproductive organs.

WWinnieF wrote:

Most good shows go out with the best of 'em, whether they want to or not, it seems.

Ok...?

WWinnieF wrote:

Not as much as ZADR, which makes little sense whatsover, given that for a majority of the show, Dib and Zim HATE each other and are rivals. The only episode to show that the two could become friends is that un-aired episode I mentioned earlier where Dib moves onto "real science" and Zim then loses all interest in his mission. But that episode clearly was a Nick concept in my estimation, since Jhonen himself wanted Dib and Zim to kill each other off, but couldn't decide who was going to make the first move.

To explain it in three words:
Fangirls Are Crazy

That's why it's popular.

WWinnieF wrote:

As I said, love knows no bounds. And it's likely to stay as such, disgusting or otherwise.

Yeah but... actually, no, just no. Animals don't know love. Love is extremely subjective tied only to humanity perhaps and for pete's sake that does not justify dogs going on dates or guys doing space babes! xP

WWinnieF wrote:

EdmasterChaos wrote:

Well, just talking about our subject and doing random ass sketches is my style. But for discussion i don't do the sketches

Interesting.

In any other intelligent argument you'd see me being the silly one.

"Bloaty's Pizza Hog" would agree with me, though. Gaz goes through a rescue mission to save her brother from Zim's clutches, just so the Membrane family can go on their annual trip to Bloaty's. Were it not for the fact that the family spends their annual time together at Gaz's favorite restaurant, she would've probably left Dib to rot, since it is clear that Membrane considers Gaz to be his far superior and less insane child and Gaz obviously relishes this fact.

Gaz wanted her only time with her father along with eating the food she loves and to do so she needed to defeat the easily defeatable Zim, doesn't prove much, she would've left Dib to be if she could still be with his dad in that restaurant, so?

WWinnieF wrote:

Still, the fact that he able to make a comic series based on his creation regardless of what Disney did with it on-screen shows that Weisman was still allowed to market his ideas outside of the Disney sphere.

Yeah he didn't give up the rights but it did take a while for him to get the comics series going, with copyright fights and stuff.

WWinnieF wrote:

But there is a difference between Weisman and Jhonen. Weisman was still able to make do with his creation regardless of what the big cheese did, but Jhonen--upon seeing what Nickelodeon did with his creative vision--willingly gave up all rights to the Invader ZIM franchise. Upon the show's end, he himself had said that following it, he no longer wants anything do with the Invader ZIM brand. He also confirmed that he ultimately refuses to work in commercial animation--especially for Viacom--ever again. So therefore, Jhonen is truly no longer a part of that which he created, because he gave it up, relinquishing all property rights to Viacom's top brass.

That's not the real difference, the difference is that Weisman loved his creation and fought for it, Jhonen on the other hand decided it wasn't worth the effort.
And since Nick never did anything other than licensing products Jhonen is still the highest authority in Zim, if somehow someone continued the series it'd be a correct despute to argue if the new season/series is canon or not.

WWinnieF wrote:

Who says they don't? Just because they don't have human reproductive organs doesn't means they can't reproduce by other means other than by machine.

Ok, actually i wasn't really thinking much there since there are females, but still we have no idea how their social structure resolves around romance so we can't argue positively or negatively if Irkens do infact love or even mate.

WWinnieF wrote:

That's bull. Dogs, cats, bunnies, and other domesticated animals do have a sense telling them that their owners either care for them or they don't. Science has even done testing with cats to show that cats have different purrs for each task they want done. So in other words, cats can manipulate us humans through their purring, because a cat's purr is generally considered either a pleasing sound when a cat is happy or a displeasing sound when the cat is unhappy. The same can be said with a dog's bark. In the case of some animals, they can even save people's lives during tough situations, such as is the case with the dogs that save people from the harsh elements of nature. They can also use their highly evolved sense of smell to tell direction in case they are ever separated from those who care for them. So given those things, to say that animals can't love is a load of hooey. The same with machines, because we are getting to the point that most man-made artificial intelligence can now think and act without the requirement of the humans that built said device or robot. That in turn means that the eventual prospect of a robotic takeover--ala science fiction--is no longer as far fetched as previously thought, especially since the military is itself creating a bunch of robots whose sole purpose it is to exterminate any possible threats.

That's instincts and data, not Love.
Love is a purely human emotion that combines wishes, desires, phisiological changes and lust into one, it's so far only human exclusive, robots cannot feel love because they will always lack of lust since it's just ridiculous for a robot to want to mate, and animals don't have wishes or desires that go beyond feelings and instincts.

WWinnieF wrote:

Then why do these couplings exist? They exist, because people see potential in them (at least, in fiction).

Again, fangirls are crazy, that's why Robin/Cyborg exists, why Zim/Dib, why Tommy/Chuckie, Valdemort/Harry, Sokka/Katara, Appa/Aang, Danny/Tucker and countless others messed up horrible shippings that involve a character and virtually anything a crazy shipper can think of, it's the worst of the worst, what comes from a person's twisted mind, just making it up doesn't justify it, it just makes it exist and in a world where anyone can enter the internet there are bound to be crazy people who's minds allow them to support such messed up crazy ships.
Though a good chunk are just for lulz.

WWinnieF wrote:

Silly and intelligent do not compute. Intelligence is often associated with either logistical hard [url=]facts of life[/url] with tangible evidence or just an all-around knowledge of the world and how it operates.

And silly...? I normally point out stuff for lulz to derrivate my oponent's point and do random sketches to prove my point with fun, silly can be logical. And the logical can be silly. But for now i only use a serious tone, which is working as you may see on how much less you're bringin in and how many points i appear to have finished and won here.

So my point is that if Gaz would dare save Dib when she otherwise wouldn't care to do so merely to spend time with her father, it is clear that she deeply adores the time spent with her only parent. That in turn leads one to believe that she does have a heart, as dark as she is. I mean, somepeople would alsothink Angelica is pure evil, but as we know through some episodes in which she shows remorse--even if forpersonal gain--the devilish brat does have a heart. Seriously, for some characters--like Angelica--there is more than meets the eye, because although she treats the babies like scum, she is very protective of them. What's more, she seems to need the babies more than they need her, since they are her only true friends and in Chuckie's case, he is the only one actually on her level more or less. That and other reasons would be why some see potential in a Chuckie/Angelica pairing.

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And since Nick never did anything other than licensing products Jhonen is still the highest authority in Zim,

No, he's not. He gave up the franchise, remember? He is no longer associated by it outside of being its initial creator. Sort of like how Jim Henson is associated with The Muppets, even though he sold the cast of Sesame Street to the former Children's Television Workshop & the crew of The Classic Muppets to Disney in 2001 & 2004, respectively. The difference is that Jhonen begrudgingly gave up his rights to the Nick brass, whereas Jim Henson clearly formed an alliance with the former CTW and Disney before he died in 1990.

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if somehow someone continued the series it'd be a correct despute to argue if the new season/series is canon or not.

Jhonen himself said that he no longer cares for the ZIM brand and that Nick can do whatever it wants.

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it's so far only human exclusive, robots cannot feel love because they will always lack of lust since it's just ridiculous for a robot to want to mate,

You apparently didn't hear the case of that Japanese guy who made himself a robotic girlfriend. As we know, machines are usually only as good as the people who built them.

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Again, fangirls are crazy, that's why Robin/Cyborg exists, why Zim/Dib, why Tommy/Chuckie, Valdemort/Harry, Sokka/Katara, Appa/Aang, Danny/Tucker and countless others messed up horrible shippings that involve a character and virtually anything a crazy shipper can think of, it's the worst of the worst, what comes from a person's twisted mind, just making it up doesn't justify it, it just makes it exist and in a world where anyone can enter the internet there are bound to be crazy people who's minds allow them to support such messed up crazy ships.

And yet, these very crazy people live "normal" lives outside their fandoms. Very strange indeed.

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But for now i only use a serious tone, which is working as you may see on how much less you're bringin in and how many points i appear to have finished and won here.

You haven't won. I just agree to what it is you have said. So that merely means we reach a consenseus. ^-^

Kataang (and somewhat, Tokka) 4EVA!

Edited on 04/20/2010 8:50am
Edited 2 total times.

Gaz has a heart, sure, but doesn't stop her at all. She's extremely logical and has a healthy love for her father. Nothing else, unlike most characcters that are Kinda like that, about 90% of the jerk characters tend to be Jerks With A Heart Of Gold who show lots of care few times, but Gaz isn't quite that, she cares for herself and probably her dad, nothing else.
And, yeah people see the Chuckie/Angelica pairing, i get that. Not canon though but shippable, you don't need to bring it back.

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No, he's not. He gave up the franchise, remember? He is no longer associated by it outside of being its initial creator. Sort of like how Jim Henson is associated with The Muppets, even though he sold the cast of Sesame Street to the former Children's Television Workshop & the crew of The Classic Muppets to Disney in 2001 & 2004, respectively. The difference is that Jhonen begrudgingly gave up his rights to the Nick brass, whereas Jim Henson clearly formed an alliance with the former CTW and Disney before he died in 1990.

Yes, but being that nothing has been made he's still tecnically the highest authority, he won't say anything about the series but if he wanted it'd tecnically be right. But that won't happen.

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Jhonen himself said that he no longer cares for the ZIM brand and that Nick can do whatever it wants.

Doesn't change how fanbases work. IF nick continued the series there would probably end up being an argument about making that new stuff it's own canon separated from the original episodes, but that'd be purely fanbase talk.

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You apparently didn't hear the case of that Japanese guy who made himself a robotic girlfriend. As we know, machines are usually only as good as the people who built them.

Yes i heard. I also heard that a japanese guy married his pillow. Doesn't mean any of those objects return the love.

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And yet, these very crazy people live "normal" lives outside their fandoms. Very strange indeed.

Not all, but yeah. Amazing how much horrible a normal person can hide in his/her mind.

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You haven't won. I just agree to what it is you have said. So that merely means we reach a consenseus. ^-^

Kataang (and somewhat, Tokka) 4EVA!

lol sorry, didn't mean i won the entire argument, but a few of the smaller ones i believe i did.

Kataang and George ftw.

Edited on 04/20/2010 9:03am

Edited on 04/20/2010 2:06pm Edited 7 total times.

It does so stop her. Her love for her father, tolerance for her brother--although he annoys her, causing her to "doom" him regularly--fondness for Bloaty's, and addiction to videogames stopped her from letting ZIM conquer the world. Otherwise she could've cared less. Heck, if she realized the fact that she could manipulate ZIM into doing her bidding, she could get rid of all the people that bug her, leaving herself, her family, and ZIM (and his own misfit "family") as the sole rulers if she saw fit. But she never once capitalized on the opportunity.

What?! Oh my god no! What the hell?! One thing is not to care and another whole different thing is thinking it's ok to allow an alien race to enslave you and your planet! Of course Gaz doesn't let Zim take over the world! She's in it!
She doesn't Care AKA she deals with all the crap in the world without a problem.

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Well, as much as he bugs her, she tolerates her brother's insanity, because really, without Dib being Dib, even Gaz would probably find something out of place. She even asked him why he wasn't bugging her like usual in the episode when Dib felt that he had lost his purpose in life. She probably would've asked ZIM the same--i.e. asking him why he wasn't going all ADHD/turrets-esque in conquering Earth--in the episode where Dib stops being ZIM's rival.

You don't know that since it's an episode that doesn't even have a finished script so you can't bring it up.

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And the reason being that, even if she says that she doesn't care, some small speck of her does care, as it is that speck that makes her used to Dib and ZIM being themselves. Seriously, outside of her family and their deluded, self-indulgent neighbor (whom the Membrane family probably see as aquaintance that they associate with to the point that one could almost consider them...friends), Gaz could care less about the rest of the universe.

Neighbor? Anyway, a small part of her cares, yes, but again she's still a powerful careless genius of the world, so having feelings doesn't change that.

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Shippable I agree with. It is the non-canon part I disagree with, because the comic scans I've posted that show subtle hints

Hints are Not canon shipping.

Or are you saying that AshXMisty is canon? How 'bout LuffyXNami, JessieXJames, YugiXTea/Anzu or the hundreds of shippings that gave hints on the series but never resolved and no writer said that they'd end up together. They're not canon. You can ship them as much as you want and it's fine but not Canon.

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on mostly Angelica's part--with her attemping to deny the idea, but not rejecting it, either--are official comics from Klasky-Csupo themselves for Nick Magazine. As well, Craig Bartlett--at one time, an official writer for the original series, before creating Hey Arnold on his own--had conceptualized the relationship between Chuckie and Angelica, with his making sure that when Angelica picked on Chuckie, it stood out, sort of like how Helga did with Arnold, minus the whole 'and yet' bit, merely because of the initial ages of the characters. To some extent however, even the 'and yet' bit was there, albeit in a subtle way, given how Angelica always selected Chuckie for all of her ideas--good or bad--and how Tommy himself came to the possible conclusion of how "She (Angelica) wants you (Chuckie), but yet, doesn't want you. I don't get it." In other words, it is that Angelica just might hide feelings for Chuckie through her bullying (the feelings made themselves knownin Cuffed, though she claimed that she was lying), but yet even Angelica herself cannot understand what made her start caring for the very person that she torments (a reverse Stockholm Syndrome that Angelica finally acknowledges to having in Pre-School Daze [the episode, not the spin-off]). With that said, I am confidently sure that were the entire original writing staff onboard with the brand throughout its entire run as both babies and preteens, we might've seen Chuckie/Angelica be as noticable as Tommy/Kimi was in the TP&KF episode of the spin-off (although to be fair, Tommy denied having any feelings for Kimi until Kimi admitted that she carved their names into the tree at the end of episode, but still the point remains that the couple is there). But because not all writers were present throughout the brand's history, all we got was hints, because Angelica's ego kept her from showing anything beyond reasonable compassion (because no one wanted to change Angelica completely from the devil she once was) and Chuckie's fear kept him from attaining any true steady relationship with anyone of the opposing gender. Regardless of those factors though, the pairing would be one of the closer-to-canon couplings within the entire brand, making it likely canon, were it directly shown beyond hints (although, I personally wouldn't consider that "almost attempted kiss" comic scan a hint).

...no, see, you're arguing what May have happened If the writers had been during the entire franchise because you Think that's what they would've done, that's purely speculation, not facts.
Also it wasn't a tree and that episode was interesting because Tommy was still with Rachel in continuity, too bad they got canned it would've made a really interesting plot point later on.

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Yeah, but the fanbase doesn't account for those actually in charge. In this case, this would be the Nick executives, since Jhonen handed all rights over to them. Regardless of what fans think, were Nick to restart the series, its stories would be canon, because Jhonen gave Nick the okay to do whatever it wanted with a franchise he wanted no more part of.

They'd be A canon, yes, but the fans would dispute what's canon and what's not by bringing arguments into account that would depend purely on the episodes themselves, which will likely never exist so we shoudl stop arguing about what the fanbase woudl argue about alleged canon if somehow Nick made invader zim episodes after these 9ish years.

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]WTF? At least machines have artificial intelligence (thereby promoting the illusion of love possibly), but a pillow? Seriously? What is off with people?

Fanboys can be crazy. And, AIs cannot love, no matter what the movies say.

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To each their own. At least we agree on Kataang. XD

yeah.... sucks that in the end in the only thing that matters we're on the same side, this whole discussion could easily get deleted for beign so off-topic

Edited on 04/20/2010 6:17pm Edited 9 total times.

You need to watch that one episode where Gaz aids Dib in stopping Zim again. The SOLE reason she stopped Zim was because his ship didn't have videogames installed. If it did, she couldn't have cared less if Zim acheived his goal, because we all know she could force him to do what she wanted, because Zim fears her (as much as he would deny this). In other words, as long as videogames, pizza, piggies, & herself and her family existed, she couldn't give two flying Voot Cruisers about the rest of humanity. She probably would've ENJOYED watching the others suffer, given her dark nature.

I'll have to watch Tak's episode again, yes.

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Zim's base IS just down the block from the Membrane home. Or did you forget this detail?

I'm pretty sure it's several blocks away, given all teh doom Zim made with the giant mecha thing that could turn invisible.

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Having feelings does too change things. Most people write Gaz off as this unfeeling monster and whilst she would probably be okay with this label, she also has a human half that does--very deep down--care what others, especially her family, think of her.

Does too?
You've gotta choose, either she's so uncaring of the word and all those others that she'd let the world be destroyed simply because she can't find a videogame to play or innocent girl deep down who wishes nothing but having the acceptance of his father, you can't use both in your arguments.

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They are when official writers include them for shipping's sake and the hints are the only way that the pairings could exist (given the age of the characters, true pairings with hugging and kissing would go overboard and beyond the scope of the franchise).

Not all the time, sometimes hinting is just the way of the author to screw around with the fanbase, and/or a way to increase viewerships. Or lampshade hanging on the ships.

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To be fair, that is canon somewhat.

Pokemon[dot]com--the official website--even had its mailbag (a now defunct "letters to the editor"-esque collumn where questions to the writers could be asked) prove it when one poster asked about Misty following her initial departure and the writer who responded answered with a "love is a fleeting thing" sort of answer.

Yeah.... the guys that make the website of the U.S. pokemon who use the dub that at the time was made by 4KIDS as their anime refference isn't the most trustworthy

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Plus, even the official manga by Toshihiro Ono made it official.

It's official in that manga, yes, but not in the anime.

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Even the Japanese themselves alluded to the notion, because in Japan, a hankerchief--as Kasumi (Misty) gives to Satoshi (Ash) when she departs--is a symbol of love and Satoshi has called Kasumi "Sumi-chan" as a term of endearment. What's more, the equivalent to The Power of One (aka Pokemon 2000/Revelation Lugia) had Kasumi tell the Japanese version of Melody that Satoshi is her "responsibility" (essentially saying that he is hers) and Toi Et Moi (translated as You & Me in English) is a Japanese love song of sorts and throughout the film, viewers would see Misty/Kasumi getting questioned over her relationship with Ash/Satoshi.

D=!

Link plz!!

Regaining composture though, sadly that movie from 11 years ago doesn't reflect the current situation, there was a very high ammount of hints not only in the movie but in the whole Orange Islands arc but that never went anywhere.

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Same with James and Jessie, to the point that the Japanese refer to the two as "The Rocket Gang Couple". In truth, the only true problem--as both couples have been known to crossdress, which seems a popular anime thing that confuses some Westerners--is in the manga, wherein by the end, Jessie was even with child, thanks to James.

Like two quotes above, it's canon in manga, but not in anime.

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Actually, the American dubbers did say that, in their eyes, Ash/Misty is canon, since they included love songs about the pairing onto official CDs and stuff.

Pokemon 2B A Master: Misty's Song (Misty singing out her feelings)

**Another version was on the Pokemon LIVE Soundtrack**

Pokemon Christmas Bash: Under the Mistletoe (A Christmas ditty about that tradition)

Totally Pokemon: He Drives Me Crazy (self-explantory; Ash drives Misty crazy)

Pokemon LIVE Soundtrack[/i]: I've Got a Secret (in the Pokemon LIVE stage show, sung by both Mrs. Ketchum [about who her former husband was] and Misty [about her hidden feelings for Ash])

Again, dubbers (specially 4KIDS) from 9-10 years ago hold no authority to the current situation, which although still gives very very very little hints for it (Ash has that misty bait still, he says it's from a special friend, yippy) but isn't canon.

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The quote from Tommy was fact and so too were the hints in Cuffed, the whole point behind the episode of Cradle Attraction (Chuckie falling for throw-away character Megan, who exhibited the bully tactics of Angelica [I would've preferred it to be Angelica herself and not a throwaway character, but I digress]), and a side note within PreSchool-Daze (Angelica comes to discover that she does like those whom she can attempt to mold; i.e. those whom she can dominate).

Shipping fuel, no confirmation. Again.

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So?

Chuckie had planned to date Nicole (ironically set up by Angelica), but she was removed after the first season and even whilst he was trying to get with Nicole, Angelica still continued to bug him whilst leaving the other ex-Rugrats alone, which says something, at least in my book.

So it'd be interesting, like i said. Y'know that maybe Maybe Tommy would've eventually decided to try his luck with Kimmi after fully recovering from losing rachel, although he'd have to take into account how much chuckie freaked out when he found the markings, interesting stuff right there.

Maybe it's the fact that Chuckie is the only one with low enough self-esteem (or maybe he likes that stuff? O/////O) to actually take the bullying.

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If they can otherwise act on their own without the aid of their makers, I wouldn't be surprised to see a fully-functioning A.I. exhibiting feelings if they were programmed with them installed.

No no no, look, AIs can 'think' by achieving logical answers by situation, as in they can be programmed to react to many different things, given a few options for 'same' questions so that it analizes the other factors in order to use the most convenient one. It can be programmed theorically to use answers that are like love (like, it gets hugged it returns the hug) but it can't Love because it can't Feel, it can use an answer and fact that could be loveable but that's just crazy and creepy.

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Too true.

yet still we'll continue...

Edited on 04/20/2010 6:29pm

Edited on 04/21/2010 12:37am Edited 7 total times.

That was a plot device (i.e. used only when the plot called for it). In some episodes, Dib was able to get to ZIM's base within reasonable time just by walking (that's was a plot device too, but still).

Well, this requires some investigation then, cuz it's likely it is simply inconsistent, which in this series isn't too surprising.

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Why not? Why can't she be both? Outwardly, she is uncaring--and "Tak: The Hideous New Girl" confirms this when she only saves the world when she couldn't find videogames on ZIM's ship--but inwardly, she does have that very small speck of light in that black pit she calls a heart that causes her to care for specific persons (namely, her family), which "Bloaty's Pizza Hog" confirms.

Because Jhonen isn't that deep or at least didn't think too hard for Zim. But, in that case she's extremely uncaring until the moment her dad's anual time with family comes, like i was saying, any other time she could care less and let the entire world be destroyed then?

[quote]Sadly the only source I could find isn't all that valid from an analytical viewpoint, so I hearby withdraw the statement until I can find Japanese transcripts and painstakening look through every Kasumi episode there is to confirm it.[quote]

-_- and here i had my hopes up a bit...

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The show ITSELF hasn't gone anywhere either.

Hey, Sinnoh's pretty cool right now.

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Sure, it has upped its showings of lolicon-worthy images, all of the girls now are focused more on contests, and Ash is given a new female counterpart each "generation" (I am seeing a backwards pattern here, since the Kanto era was tamer to an extent, Misty--despite having some girlish aspects--was defined as The Tomboyish Mermaid [no doubt a reference to the episode where Misty wears an Ariel-like outfit for her sisters' water performance], and Misty lasted four to five seasons, whereas the show now only has two to four seasons generally before a new reigon is introduced from the Japanese original), but the formula has relatively remained constant throughout the course of the series. People say the show's tanking in ratings due to the fad behind it disappearing fast, but I say it could be because Misty was the first and last non-stereotypical female on the series (even Jessie--who is supposed to be leading Team Rocket--has let her fashion sense lead her to a life of contests instead of battling) from before it become unrecognizable from what it used to be.

Ah yes, because there has NEVER been a tomboyish girl in a shonen. Sora, Sakura (shippuden), Aeris (the girl from Zodiac), Tifa, etc. say hello.
And, it's doing as well as ever in japan, an interview confirmed though that the female replacing is purely for fanservice.

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Umm...that lure--which Ash seems insanely posessive over--is in the original, too.

Yes, that's why i said it's one of the very very very few hints.

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Like the hankie from her departure episode, the lure was a gift from Ash's first female companion and dear friend. From where I see it, that was the writer's way of saying that Misty hasn't been forgotten, even though she's been regressed to cameo appearances and nothing more.

In hte battle frontier she also appears and travels with Ash and Co. for 3 episodes, plus got a 2 episode arc in Hoenn where she, Ash and co. go to some kingdom place.

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At least people see Misty doing cameo appearances once each "generation" though, whereas people hardly see Gary and Tracey at all since Gary became a Pokemon researcher and Tracey became Professor Oak's assistant. Perhaps Misty remaining is saying something, such as the fact that even the Japanese recognize her as a popular character, so they keep her around, even if it's for a one-episode scene.

Gary's appeared 3 times so far in Sinnoh, having important roles.

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Just as the Japanese never make Ash & friends age, thereby making character development practically impossible, how can you "make official" couples from a franchise whose characters have ages that only range from babyhood to their preteen years (i.e. they're still kids)? You can't, because most canonical pairings--even in cartoons--have usually been done when characters are either adults in disguise (i.e. the kid characters are mature beyond their years [ex: Hey Arnold from a philosophical standpoint or Jimmy Nuetron from a bookwormy perspective]) or they're 13 and older (e.g. they're old enough to understand a rough concept of love as most define it [ex: Danny Phantom and Avatar). Not to say that Rugrats isn't mature beyond its scope--given how some of its earlier episodes had things only adults could get and how some episodes were nightmares waiting to happen--but truly, it isn't, because despite the transition from toddler to teen and slight character alterations as such, most of the teen primary characters are stuck in the fallout from the "cootie" period of their lives prior to puberty for all eternity and the original toddlers are obviously babies and thus, are--by proxy for many--too young to be worth shipping.

Yes. And because they can't make a shipping canon means no ship is canon.
Also, Helga isn't mature at all, she's just messed up. Her family gives all attention to her sister, Bob works too much, the mom is an alcoholic(confirmed by word of god) and as we saw in an episode the first person Ever to be nice to her was Arnold who offered Helga his (thing for rain, gah mah inglish be slipping) so Helga became obsessed.
And, you can't really use american series to prove your point on an anime.

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I couldn't say for sure if he likes that sort of thing (e.g. having low self-esteem), but we do know that although Chuckie is socially awkward at school--as most nerds and geeks stereotypically are--his only central fear in the spin-off series is his fear of girls. This means that he generally has some self-esteem, but it crumbles when it comes to social interactions with the opposite gender. Though it is not as if he is intimidated by most of the girls he has met (Angelica is the exception), but rather, Chuckie's fear comes from the fact that he just cannot have the courage to go up to a girl and ask her out, being terribly shy and afraid that he'd damage a relationship before it ever even starts. That's why he even winds up asking Angelica for advice in the first place, since she...well...is a girl and knows "girl things". Another connective notch in C/A's belt as a potential relationship is in the fact that most of the advice that Angelica would give the clueless-about-females boy is the sort of stuff that generally only works for her, possibly pushing Chuckie in the direction of picking up girls that fall under "Angelica standards". And we know from experience in watching the franchise grow that the only girl to fall under Angelica's standards would be Angelica herself. Even the popular clique Angelica supposedly longs to be in would be in another category different from Angelica, as those people see Angelica as below them in status, but yet, accept her due to her outward attitude as a shallow, materialistic she-witch who would do anything to get to the top, even exploit, belittle, and put-down her truer friends in the former Rugrats. Being that she's done that to "the dumb babies" since she was in diapers, her treating them like second-class is no trouble, except when it comes to Chuckie, since--despite his nerdy/geeky demeanor and lifestyle--he is still only one year younger than her and she probably sees him as a challenge of sorts, being that as Angelica, she knows how to push Chuckie's buttons, yet she also knows that he can take a stand against her whenever called upon to do so. So it is sort of a paradox: He can stand up to Angelica and deal with her pressures, yet when it comes to other girls, he asks her for advice and she ends up trying to prod him towards the type of girls just like her, even though she is the only girl like her, because she is Angelica.

Angelica is a bully who likes to have people under her kinda like her mom. Chuckie out of those she used to bully when she was a kid (like that other red hair boy) is still bullyable, that's pretty much it. Of course she has a big sweet side though.

:

Some forms of love are crazy and creepy, yet they work. That's life, I suppose.

...not really no, some is just crazy. So crazy that it works, because the other one is incappable of getting out (being a pillow, computer or animal)

Edited on 05/08/2010 9:27pm Edited 2 total times.

My end point is that unless it directly involves her or any of her desires, she could care less if ZIM enslaves the Earth.

and here i had my hopes up a bit...[/quote] Agreed, i guess.
Kinda forgot the argument... it's been 17 days man.... but, the followings get me coming back >__>

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I know that there's been tomboyish girls in other anime series, however, in the concept of Pokemon--the only longest-running anime in America

...so? The Simpsons is the longest running american animated show, does that mean their disfunctional family of the latter seasons is original and good? No.

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to still actually be used as a marketing tool (all others from the 90's [YuGiOh, Digimon, Full Metal Alchemist, Card Captors, Dragonball Z, et al] have bit the dust, in large part)

What?!
First off:
Yugioh and Digimon hardly count to be of the 90s, they both started on the late 90s, very late, and by the time Yugioh came to America and got popular it was already 2000, while the Digimon franchise had most of its popularity at the first season it doesn't change that Adventures was teh only series not aired during the 21th century.

Next off, Full Metal Alchemist is not in any way a marketing tool, it is nothing like Yugioh and Digimon.
See, while Yugioh kicked off with a manga, it only ran for about 20 chapters before introducing the game known now as Duel Monsters in-universe or Yugioh in real life, afterwards Yugioh became fully merchandise driven in the anime and affected the manga a lot. Digimon started as tamagochi like toys that had a spectacular half-hour movie that got green light for anime series.
FMA is a manga with a story purely for the sake of story-telling. The anime came out later and had to change the story since it had caught up to the manga, creating another great story that compares to the manga. Popular enough to get mass merchandise, but in no way merchandise driven.

Sakura card captors and DBZ aren't merchandise driven either, they got popular, they got merchandise, that's it.

And, the guess what, Yugioh is still alive and kicking, second most popular card game, decent enough ratings with its current anime, Digimon still sells games and toys, and has a new anime coming this summer, FMA still has yet to finish the manga, though it only has One chapter left, but damn it's popular the series, how so? chapter 107 was 80 pages long, that's a lot for the usually 36 pages manga that is FMA and 108? why that final chapter will be 158 pages long! and that's without talking about the new anime that follows the manga to the letter, DBZ has the due to lack of a better word "Abridged" series airing in japan, where everything's condenced better so it's not as slow as the first anime. And Sakura Card Captor played a mayor part in the crossover spectacular known as Tsubasa Resevoir Chronicles that ended recently.

So... you're wrong. Very wrong.

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-most of the girls have forgone the original concept of battling for contests.

Let's be honest, Misty didn't get to battle that much despite the fact that she *should* be better than Ash, instead halfway through Kanto it appears that Ash is the better trainer, so they really didn't use Misty *that* greatly back in teh day.

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Whilst Misty herself was known to be interested in a contest or two, she was primarily a battler first and foremost, making her a far more interesting female character than most characters who've since come following her departure.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa, i'll have to stop you there. Misty is filled with Nostalgia Factor, you can't trust what you feel for the first season, we were all small and gullable.

Now, Dawn/Hikari is pretty interesting, like everything in Ruby/Saphire, Diamond/Pearl refined these new things and perfected them, from May the new female lead we got an evolved character, Dawn the chick who is peppy like any other on the outside but has severe self-esteem issues that she gets challenged with during her journey as a trainer, bringing into a new light how it is to live in that world when you aren't an Ace that wins all the time or only needs One more chance to win, and Dawn's Piloswine/Mamoswine was a nice different take on Ash's Charmeleon/Charizard, she honestly was depressed and doubted herself as a trainer for not being able to train her priorly obedient and cute pokemon, unlike Ash who mostly just went "oh well, he'll obey me sometime =/"

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It doing well in its host country matters little,

*facepalm* WHAT?!
That's where it was marketed to! It matters the most that it does well in the host country! lots of things don't leave because they *know* it won't work any where else, if it does it's just a bonus! but doing well in the host country is what matters the most. Don't ever take a career in business >>

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because the brand was created to go well beyond just the confines of its country of origin.

No. Pokemon was made for japan.
Gamefreak and the guys behind the pokemon anime at the time were Scared of it going to america, the anime guys going as far as making Tracey to replace Brock in order to stay out of trouble.
Then it did well in america and afterward world-wide, so they made it less japanese in later versions.

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In other words, it was created to be a global phenomenon and to be as such, it would have to do well outside of Japan. That's why the American versions get dubbed the world over, whereas the Japanese original stays remotely inside of Japan.

Um... No.

See, that's a Nintendo thing, things go pretty much:

Nintendo Japan>Nintendo America>Nintendo Europe>The Rest Of Nintendo

Hence why in Platinum they got rid of the gambling place for Europe version and others affected by europe, and HG/SS also removed them since the American version due to Europe, so it's not much phenomenom talk as much as how Nintendo works in dubbing their games.

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In fact, the brand's entire purpose outside of being a mere marketing tool was to promote the videogames.

No no no, it's more like, the brand is of the video games, everything else in the franchise are mere marketing tools that have been succesfull on their own, allowing them to stay alive.

:

Unfortunately, the videogames are stagnant and repetitive and therefore, couldn't be readily transferred verbatim onto other media. The reason being is that in other media--i.e. books (formalized or comic) or series and films (live-action or animated)--character development is needed, whereas in videogames, it is okay to do the same thing for countless generations and still be able to sell. That said, when videogames (ex: Mario, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, et al) are transformed into other forms of media, character development is essential in order for people to get behind the characters and invest their time in watching how the characters grow and change, if they ever do. Even relationships are dependant on how characters evolve, because relationships are--in themselves--subject to change and are also often usually a key element in a franchise's success or downfall. That's why in the book, series, or film version of a hit videogame franchise, the core relationships taken from the games (ex: Mario/Peach Toadstool, Liu Kang/Kitana, Johnny Cage/Sonya Blade, Ryu/Chun Li, Guile/Cammy, et al) play a nice little side role to the action that normally would drive a game all on its own.

uh.... ok, the pokemon games are still fun though. And i don't care about video games adaptation into other media.

:

Fanservice for whom?

Japanese perverts. And it worked.

:

Replacing the female lead--especially if they've been around for quite a long time--ruins the dynamic of the core group and then makes the franchise appear weak, because it then clearly shows that relationships matter little, thereby turning people away (because in books, series, and films, relationships--as I have said--are key to helping viewers understand and relate to characters).

Watch the current anime before saying that their dynamic sucks 8D
Sure, Brock is now very much just There, but the dynamic is pretty good with Ash being somewhat mentoring Dawn while still trying to improve himself, while Dawn's character development is surprisingly great and when not serious interacts in an entertaining way with Ash and all their pokemon.

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Oooh...she appeared in THREE episodes, big whoop. Until she becomes a semi-prominant fixture (like that would ever happen again), character relations are going to suck,

Sorry, that's all that will ever happen. So... why complain over stuff that won't change?

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because fans realize that the characters they've invested time in getting to know are just going to be replaced at the drop of a hat just to continue to market to a franchise that clearly doesn't have the global sway it once did.

Am i watching the wrong show? this is Pokemon for pete's sake, it was never that good and the market is 7-10 year olds, and no it's not like other series that are enjoyed by all ages, it's just 7-10 year old formulatic series that has some cool things going on but can easily be forgotten. And, what if it's not as popular as when it started? It still does a hell of a good job making money and nobody forces you to watch, so what's wrong?

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And since the whole goal of that brand is to be a global phenonmenon, once the creators see that people have quit investing in the brand, it will have to come to an end, because just dropping a long-term franchise without giving a definative conclusion to said franchise makes all the actual investing by fans feel moot and not needed.

Whut? Now you're talking about the anime getting cancelled without an ending? that's... really not something you can complain about, we have no clue what would happen if they get cancelled, who knows maybe they'd get to do a proper finale, but god-knows whent hat'll happen .-.

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Bullox. Remember the Wendy/Casper example? The characters are children, yet the relationship is clearly present. Sure, it was directly said in the episodes I posted, but even if it wasn't directly stated, as I've said before, not all relationships have to be directly presented.

Facepalm, i just facepalmed

I will say it ONCE more, and make sure you understand, cuz i cannot say it again without insulting your intelligence:

Stated relationship = Canon
Not-Stated relationship = Not Canon

Stated Relationship =/= Not-Stated Relationship.

You can't compare a relationship that only gave some hints to one that was stated to exist!

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The same goes for the Rugrats and other franchises. As is known, some relationships run on subtle hints (as Kataang itself did, before the creators officially give their support for the pairing),

Kataang was planned from the start.

:

given particular circumstances, but just because they run on hints doesn't mean that the relationships that exist from said hints aren't any more or less real than those that would otherwise be directly stated (ex: Burton clearly hinting at a BJ/Lyds relationship in the BJ cartoon, despite the movie ending that came before).

*points to my comment above the kataang comment*

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Bull. She is mature for a fourth grader. Given her dysfunctional family, she had to grow up faster than most kids of her age range, even her beloved, who is rather enlightened on his own merit, seeing as he views matters from multiple perspectives, even when others--even adults--see things in a clouded or jaded way. The same concept can be applied to reality too, because the true facts are that some kids are actually smarter than we adults give them credit for and as such, they understand far more than we expect them to. I mean, kids aren't stupid, even if the media and government would like them to be as such so that the powers that be can continue to live the high lives that they live. Sure, kids can be trained to like certain things, but not all kids are suspectible to the pressures exterted upon them by their peers, their parents, or even the powers that run the modern world system. After all, everyone is in control over their own fate, regardless of any obstacle in their path. The actions one takes would have consequences, but it is up to oneself to mold their own destiny as they see fit, regardless of what the future might hold.

Well, while it is true that such psychological obstacles in the life of a child could potentially lead to a psychological growth if it doesn't ruin the child forever, but this is all psychological stuff we don't have degrees on so let's just leave it at we don't know if the author wanted Helga to be a greatly intelligent girl that survives her bad family better than her sister or just a girl with deep issues who craves for affection in a different way than her sister.

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I can if said anime was created to go beyond the confines of Japan and actually has its success or failure based on whether or not other countries like it.

Too bad we don't know anything like that. Ever.

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In other words, if America and other countries didn't like the anime, it would've stayed in Japan and it wouldn't have become the global phenomenon it was meant to be and thusly, would've failed in its endeavor and would then become a forgotten memory, cults dedicated to it notwithstanding.

*sigh* It was not meant for that, it all started with a little ambitious game by a rag-tag group lead by a guy with dreams, said dreams while big weren't worlwide, but Nintendo saw the potential and with hard work it became a global phenomenom.

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Herald is just the "Johnathan" to Angelica's "Charlotte". With Chuckie, it is something completely different. There clearly is an undefined yet noticable reason for why Angelica still picks on Chuckie, even ten years into the future, when she has no justifiable reason for doing so. It was just too bad that the respective series would be cancelled before that reason could be unearthed. At any rate, in the early series episodes, it was obvious to quite a few fans that Craig Bartlett wrote the Chuckie/Angelica dynamic to be a precursor to what Arnold/Helga would become, albeit it in a more domineering fashion. Proof is in the pudding, given those episodes I've listed before, the official comics by Klasky-Csupo for Nick Magazine, and the simple way the relationship was written and directed.

It's hinted, and if i have to explain to you again how hinted relationships are not cannot but still very good for shipping, well, i don't knwo what to do, but damn i will not lose this argument.

Edited on 05/08/2010 10:39pm
Edited 2 total times.

Edited on 05/10/2010 4:05pm Edited 2 total times.

It does good enough to stay on the air when it probably should've been ended ages ago.

It does good enough to stay on the air when it probably should've been ended ages ago.[/quote]

It's more like, it's doing just well enough as other shows that get renewed, it gets good enough ratings, but that doesn't mean it's a good show. Ratings and money don't mean quality.

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They started in the 90's, so they qualify as 90's products.

Guess tecnically you are correct.

:

And when you compare DBZ and Pokemon to that of YuGiOh and Digimon in the States, the first two actually are still relevant--DBZ milking the videogame realm and Pokemon still airing an anime series--whereas YuGiOh is nowhere near the popularity status of Pokemon (the anime series of GX and 5Ds aren't aired as often as Diamond and Pearl) and Digimon is pretty much dead, after having competed with Pokemon and even YuGiOh for the same audience and lost miserably.

Little flaw though, EVERY shonen series milk fighting games, DBZ are just hte most popular and get all the games released here. Another flaw in your argument is that most DBZ games came long after the anime had ended in most of the world (i got no clue when USA finished it to be honest, but DBZ games started to come one after another at near ending PS1 age, right?)
Yugioh might not be as popular as the franchise that got a company for the developers and for the franchise without counting the Nintendo company, but it does well enough, so why compare them in This argument? what is the point of this?
Hey, Digimon was getting bad ratings long before Yugioh came into the mix, and, they got a new anime coming plus being an average franchise in japan.

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In the States, you have to market yourself or you're dead, plain and simple, so in the States, most things are sales-driven.

..............

That's one of the dumbest things i have heard.

EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE is "sales" driven, yes. But the difference between FMA and most series and Pokemon, Beyblade and others is that in the latter they do the merchandise they wanna sell first and then make a series to advertise, on the other hand the other series (and most series actually) do a story, and when it starts getting popular they make lots and lots of merchandise to sell the crap out of it and make lots of money.

But it needs to get popular before they think of sales by all and any kind of merchandise.

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The only reason Misty didn't get to battle is because Ash was the show's star,

That's exactly what i meant, theorically Misty was easily better than Ash, yet that wasn't really touched upon often if at all.

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whilst she was primarily just the female lead. That's not to say that being Gym Leader is any better, since the status of Gym Leader has practically be demoted to the rank of merely someone underlings defeat to advance their placement in the games and anime. At least back then, being a Gym Leader meant something. Now, it's a joke.

WHAT?! XD

The very first gym in the very first game is a dude with Two pokemon, of which one has amazing power... that doesn't do much most of the time. They never meant anything in the games, they meant a little in the anime, at least Sabrina and Lt. Surge and a few others.

The manga on the other hand has always had the gym leaders being important character, something that up until now hasn't changed.

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Speak for yourself. I was already in Junior High when Pokemon debuted in the States, so I wasn't as gullible as some who were just born when the series aired. Sure, I was young at heart, but that didn't make me more or less gullible than anyone else.

Tell me, do you right now still like Everything you liked at Junior High?
Also, you need to rephrase your last point there, you're saying you were just as gullable as anyone.

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The way you're talking, it sounds like Dawn should be the show's star and not Ash.

Well, she is more interesting to be honest.

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Seriously, Ash himself has just been "there" for a while. His dream to be Pokemon Master has been stalled for Dawn's foray into the Pokemon world and Ash himself appears to no longer have the same Chosen One vibe he used to have,

Well, his chosen one vibe has been rarely touched upon on any point in the anime, at first he was kinda special due to the Sabrina incident, and a few times over the course of the series he's done Special thing, the most recent is that he has a powerful Aura (think Lucario) but that very very rarely gets touched upon. Still, Ash is just doing what he always does, though now he shares more of his screentime (thankfully) like my comment on most the series "it's the same as ever, if someone saw DP first he'd think it's way better than Kanto, but if someone saw Hoenn first that person woudl think it's the best one, and so on."

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now that he's lost to characters just recently created who should be technically under him in experience and ability.

Wrong, it's been stated that Paul/Shinji is actually a mirror of Ash, having competed in the 4 regions (as in, Ash started his journey in Kanto, Shinji started his journey by going to Johto, Ash goes to Johto and Shinji is at Hoenn, Ash at Hoenn and Paul at Kanto, and now they meet in Sinnoh) so they have arguably the same ammount of experience, only Shinji is really awesome and knows how to train his pokemon to their maximum potential. So, Paul beating the emotionally predictable Ash makes sense. And it's awesome. I mean, come on, who didn't want Ash to get 6-2'd like that XD

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Or in other words, don't work for Nintendo. Those masterminds behind the Nintendo name were the ones to come out and say that the brand was created to be a mass marketing tool, even at the expense of the Japanese creators who claimed that they didn't have the global market in mind.

When the heck did nintendo say that? It took them 2 and a half years to get it to america. Simply because it was a phenomenom in japan that had a chance at the world.

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Wrong. Yes, in Japan, the games started it all, but in America, the anime came first. In fact, the release of Pokemon Yellow proved that the anime came first States-side, as that game was solely based upon the Indigo season. And because Yellow is essentially an "Americanized" version of a hit Japanese game, it doesn't get the remakes and sequels the other officially Japanese games get (ex: FireRed, LeafGreen, HeartGold, SoulSilver, et al).

*groans* No. No and no.

What does it matter that in america they showed the anime first to capture audience?
And, Yellow Version, wanna know something about yellow? it came out in Japan on September 12 1998 and on October 1 1999 it came to the US. it was made in japan, it was japanese because the anime was popular in japan, it was a fanservice japanese game that like Blue (which as we all know was made into Red and Blue for america) got translated and released in america. Also it was made to buy gamefreak time in order to finish Gold and Silver.

Also, the reason why Blue, Yellow and Crystal were not remade is because they are third (Well, Yellow is 4th) versions, which were simply upgrades of the generation starters of their time, no need to remake them since there wasn't much point to upgrade the remakes further when they can have new better games a year after the remakes.

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In order to for it to last, it has to remain popular or else it will be forgotten.

And it does, with little children. That's the point, and it works.

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Making money isn't everything. Granted, it is the motivation of the modern world system, but as Linus of Peanuts said regarding math, "How can you learn new math with an old math mind?" In other words, as much as things are driven by profit, it would suit me just fine if creators, producers, editors, and all others just create things for the purpose of quality to make them successful, not just to get a paycheck and throw some half-assed slock onto the screen and call it good.

We'd all like that. But, they make enough money, they get enough ratings to stay alive, they won't care.
At least GameFreak and those who write the Pokemon Special manga do care for quality.

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Fine, you wanted stated, I'll give you stated...

See? So, there is a Sato/Kasu tone, even in the original Japanese source, beyond just the hints (like the hankie and lure). And as read in the overview of this article, the fact that professors and teachers, as well as scholars from the studies of anthropology, sociology, media studies, and what have you are following the series' impact shows that the franchise is more than just the cash cow for 7-10 year olds that you claim it to be.

uh... well, this is embarrasing, see, i cannot read that, the size expansion makes it hard to read, and without it it just hurts, could you type what the picture said? ^^;;;

Also, thank you for admitting that evidence from official people is needed for something to be canon.

Edited on 05/10/2010 5:19pm
Edited 2 total times.

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