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Avatar: The Last Airbender Forums

Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Official Character Relationship Discussion 4

Sokka ship?

  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5341]Sep 23, 2008
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    On the subject of how Aang and Katara made up, Mike and Bryan (in the S3 dvd box set commentaries) said that they resolved their differences peacefully off-screen.

    Besides, I think it was obvious during Zuko's coronation ceremony, that Katara (if she hadn't already before the ceremony) was more than ready to make peace with Aang by then. We even heard their theme song play before Zuko made his speech.

    And yes. XD Katara was definitely no longer confused and ready when she went and planted the big one on Aang. Mike and Bryan even emphasized that during the commentaries. Heck, they even mentioned about how the Korean animation director was worried about how passionate the kiss was and they were like - it has to be that way!!! Lol.
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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [5342]Sep 23, 2008
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    anonde wrote:
    On the subject of how Aang and Katara made up, Mike and Bryan (in the S3 dvd box set commentaries) said that they resolved their differences peacefully off-screen. Besides, I think it was obvious during Zuko's coronation ceremony, that Katara (if she hadn't already before the ceremony) was more than ready to make peace with Aang by then. We even heard their theme song play before Zuko made his speech. And yes. XD Katara was definitely no longer confused and ready when she went and planted the big one on Aang. Mike and Bryan even emphasized that during the commentaries. Heck, they even mentioned about how the Korean animation director was worried about how passionate the kiss was and they were like - it has to be that way!!! Lol.

    WOAH! wait up- they acknowledged that they needed to resolve their differences and have Katara figure out her feelings, and decided to keep it off screen?!?! WHAT! I was glad when they finally brought up Katara's feelings in EIP because they realised they needed to actually bring up her own developement, but then to leave the resolution of it offscreen? I get creating suspense or mystique around something, or leaving it to fans imagination because it wasnt important ie How Zuko and Iroh got to massage parlor, or what happen on boat trip to South pole, but this was important. Kataang was, according to them, major part of the show. There was so many other things that could have been removed or shortened if it was an issue of time. *sigh* my opinion of course. Would be nice if there was some extended version of finale that could be brought out

    Edited on 09/23/2008 6:15am
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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5343]Sep 23, 2008
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    Lol.

    First off, it's not easy to animate even 1 second of footage.

    Second, try slowing the animation - there's a lot of frames required. That Appa licking Nyla scene for example - there was over a dozen different frames for a licking scene that barely lasted a second.

    Third, there's sound to consider. Voices, sound effects, background music, etc.

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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [5344]Sep 23, 2008
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    I get how hard animating is- what i meant (As i said) was replacing scenes that were unnecessary to the overall plot and character development or shortening ie simplifying them. Their are many stages before a the work is drawn for finalized version; such as script reads, concept art and story boarding. They do this to ensure that when they get the animation back there is as little re-editing and redos needed.
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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5345]Sep 23, 2008
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    Errr... they did already decide on what's necessary and what's unnecessary.

    Just because you think this or that is unnecessary doesn't mean they think this or that is unnecessary.

    It's a lot more easier to criticize than do, you know.

    Plus, there's a news article years ago which revealed it takes 9 months for one episode to be completed from start to finish.

    Anyway, buy the dvd box set and listen to the commentaries, especially the portion wherein Mike and Bryan said they invested a lot of their time, energy, sweat into developing this show.
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  • Avatar of Valin610

    Valin610

    [5346]Sep 23, 2008
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    I do agree, there should have been at least a little acknowledgment to Katara deciding that she wasn't confused anymore and knew that she wanted to take the next step. Even if there wasn't any offscreen conversation with them, the ending still makes sense. She knows how Aang feels already and the quickest way to show him how she feels about it now is to embrace in a make-out session.
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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [5347]Sep 24, 2008
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    Valin610 wrote:
    I do agree, there should have been at least a little acknowledgment to Katara deciding that she wasn't confused anymore and knew that she wanted to take the next step. Even if there wasn't any offscreen conversation with them, the ending still makes sense. She knows how Aang feels already and the quickest way to show him how she feels about it now is to embrace in a make-out session.


    Thanks Valin610, and yeah your left to assume that something must have happened so it still works (personally i thought there wasnt a convo, but Katara working out for self).

    However (and this is answer to your post anonde) as i said its part of something that the creators thought of as, in their words, a central part of the show. Obvious anonde they decided not to put it in *rolls eyes* , and i said how hard animating is! I do not hate this show, ive loved it since my little brother introduced it to me ages ago. Im giving honest criticism, as someone who is interested in multimedia (and doing a uni course in it!), as to what i think were areas that i felt needed to have been addressed- on screen. Fans can do that you know and still love a show.

    you said it yourself when you commented on what they said from the finale- Katara worked out her feelings stated in EIP. It wasnt ignored as being unimportant (which im thankful for) or forgotten, but was an actual plot and character point that needed resolving. They however chose to leave it offscreen, something i "personally" think was a mistake. You dont have to agree with me, but dont try to undermine my point by saying im ignorant to how hard something is to produce. not only that, but its irrelevant to my point. though ive nothing against you buddy.

    Trust me, i'd love to do that (im one of those ppl who actually puts commentry on for fun of it family guy, Rob Chick and Futurama esp) but i live in Australai and they only JUST brought out vol 3 of s1! plus hardly anywhere sells them. So im waiting till we finnally get boxset
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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5348]Sep 24, 2008
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    It just seems to me that you're acting as though you think you can do better than the guys who created this show.

    Trust me, I can be pretty critical about shows and stuff as well, but when it comes to shows and stuff that I really really like to the point of actually taking part of its fandom - criticizing just feels too much like nitpicking to me.

    Besides, when it comes to Aang and Katara's relationship - Mike and Bryan are probably the biggest Kataangers around.

    There's also the case of whether highlighting a relationship can be too little or too much, especially in an action-adventure show like Avatar.

    Consider that the entire show practically ends with Aang and Katara kissing. Shipping-wise, that's the crowning trope - it ends with a kiss. It practically yells - And they live happily ever after.

    Showing a prior scene in which Aang and Katara makes up may actually subtract the OOMPH from the finale kiss.
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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [5349]Sep 25, 2008
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    anonde wrote:
    It just seems to me that you're acting as though you think you can do better than the guys who created this show. Trust me, I can be pretty critical about shows and stuff as well, but when it comes to shows and stuff that I really really like to the point of actually taking part of its fandom - criticizing just feels too much like nitpicking to me. Besides, when it comes to Aang and Katara's relationship - Mike and Bryan are probably the biggest Kataangers around. There's also the case of whether highlighting a relationship can be too little or too much, especially in an action-adventure show like Avatar. Consider that the entire show practically ends with Aang and Katara kissing. Shipping-wise, that's the crowning trope - it ends with a kiss. It practically yells - And they live happily ever after. Showing a prior scene in which Aang and Katara makes up may actually subtract the OOMPH from the finale kiss.

    Do i think i could have made avatar as amazing as it was- no! i would never have come up with the idea. And the creators have done amazing things with the show. I dont think im better than them- i never implied that. Admitingly i naturally analyse things, its what i do so that applies to things i like and dislike. But say that you'd have liked for something to have played out differently, or you think the creators did somthing doesnt makes (complete) sense with what has happened before doesnt mean you automatically consider yourself better. He*ll these forums would have died a LONG time ago if fans of shows didnt voice opions, speculate and analyse shows.ALot of them dont think that creators and writers are bad (though there's exceptions Smallville- WTF guys!), they just see the show differently.

    I honestly would have considerably perfered a scene of Katara talking to Aang- WHICH could have had a kiss. But the third option i perfer involves neither- katara walks out like before, same zoom off into sunset, but instead of coming back to the kiss we see bellow the balcony, with sun in back ground, as katara reachs for Aangs hand and they grasp each other's tightly, fingers intermingled. Not only would this mean that development could, or couldn't, have happened offscreen but that it heavly implies they are going to be together without jumping into anything. My opinion, and here i do think that that would have been better, and even mor romantic. And now with info you've given, no prob with being to "intimate" lol haha And again fact they are kataangers just reinforces my question of why they thought it should not have been seen on screen, or a variation of it.

    Edited on 09/25/2008 6:19am
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  • Avatar of Avaang18

    Avaang18

    [5350]Sep 25, 2008
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    :
    But the third option i perfer involves neither- katara walks out like before, same zoom off into sunset, but instead of coming back to the kiss we see bellow the balcony, with sun in back ground, as katara reachs for Aangs hand and they grasp each other's tightly, fingers intermingled. Not only would this mean that development could, or couldn't, have happened offscreen but that it heavly implies they are going to be together without jumping into anything

    LOL! Yeah, i'm sure a lot of Zutarians would've like that so they still could've lived in the delusion that Katara didn't like Aang xD

    Sorry but no, Mike and Bryan had other plans. Katara loves Aang and best way to show that was to have her tongue him

    Now would I have preferred that they showed the moment where Aang and Katara worked out there differences on screen? Maybe, but Mike and Bryan confirming that they did is enough for me. And besides, going by what happened in the episode ( ie. Katara's dramatic "Aang's going to come back......he has to" and Aang looking completely unsurprised that Katara came out there and made out with him") you can pretty much assume that Katara said something like "we'll be together after the war"

    On another note, I laugh at the part in the commentaries where M & B basically said it pisses us off when fanbrats think they know more about our characters and our show than we do" (They didn't exactly say it like that though, but I still found it funny xD) *looks at a certain group of shippers*

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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5351]Sep 25, 2008
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    Eh...?

    @Sektos - if you really want discussions about this show - you wouldn't be picking a fuss with me a-critiquing your critic of how Mike and Bryan handled Aang and Katara's relationship.

    Sounds to me you just don't want me disagreeing with you disagreeing with Mike and Bryan's decisions.

    Sorry, but I just happen to think that Mike and Bryan did great, action-wise and romance-wise. According to the commentaries, the romance was basically all about Aang and Katara. It was the main love story.

    They not only wanted to give us a kick-ass action-adventure show but also a love story between Aang and Katara. Now, in a previous interview - they have said that they do not expect everyone to get into the love story aspect of their show, but they are appreciative of the fans that do enjoy it.

    Again, I'm gonna highlight that Aang and Katara's relationship is really a BIG plot element in this show. It is intended to be that way, and Mike and Bryan want it to be that way. The fans didn't make them do it; Aang and Katara was always their idea from the start.

    Heck, the commentaries even said that their Korean animation director protested about the kiss being so passionate, but Mike and Bryan insisted that it has to be that way.

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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [5352]Sep 26, 2008
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    Okay last post im doing as a reply to this Anonde, because i dont want to get caught in another one of these stupid loops. YOUR NOT critiquing my point, you just keep repeating that animation is hard and that MIke and Bryan are the be all and end all, and that if a fan doesnt like something or completely agree with it they basically should just shut up. If your were critiquing my point you would have maybe discussed why the kiss made more sense than my point (besides trying to have a go at Zutarians). You might of reasonably said why the scenes they did have in the finale ALL should have been there and that no room should have been made for some on-air resolution to Katara's feelings.

    You dont have to be sorry for thinking the creators did a great. I think they've created one of the best animated shows ive seen. However, sorry, but i dont agree that they did a great job with the main love story; good from Aangs but frankly IMO lacking from Katar. AND you dont have to agree to it

    Ive made a point that the creators said it was basically the central theme . I have to wonder whether you read my whole posts before you reply! Your using my points on why they SHOULD have had the resolution to state their intentions! seriously how does that help your point when it just raises fact that it was VERY important, and as such, maybe should have taken some time away from Aang flying around in a Bubble and Ozai flying like Astroboy.

    Shows are made or brocken by their fans. DONT belittle it. i highly respect that they kept to their story and didnt deviate. And i seriously hope the creators didnt speak like that because then i have lost respect for them. A show is about its audience, not creator's on self gratification (too serious a word, but 1st to pop to mind). Now the creators havent done that, but it isnt theirs anymore. Its all their fan's also. I know another director who unfortunatley went down that road and his name is George Lucas. The creators are great, but still doesnt mean someone cannot give an honest opinion. Your entitled to your own opinion and im fine with ppl not agreeing with mine. Im on good terms with many that dont. All luck to you mate, but thats it from me.
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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5353]Sep 26, 2008
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    Whatever.

    You sound like the type who dishes out "honest criticisms" but can't take some criticisms himself. In which case, good luck, buddy - you're gonna need it.

    Also, just a heads up for the folks who still don't think Katara's feelings were obvious. Aside from her probably giving Aang some tongue in the closing scene - her VA also revealed that Katara did have a crush on Aang since at least ep 202 Cave of the Two Lovers.

    Also, take note of the fact that she was jealous of Onji in ep The Headband.

    Still not enough? Buy the book - Tale of Katara.

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  • Avatar of bl0ndi3girl18

    bl0ndi3girl18

    [5354]Sep 26, 2008
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    anonde wrote:

    Whatever.

    You sound like the type who dishes out "honest criticisms" but can't take some criticisms himself. In which case, good luck, buddy - you're gonna need it.

    Also, just a heads up for the folks who still don't think Katara's feelings were obvious. Aside from her probably giving Aang some tongue in the closing scene - her VA also revealed that Katara did have a crush on Aang since at least ep 202 Cave of the Two Lovers.

    Also, take note of the fact that she was jealous of Onji in ep The Headband.

    Still not enough? Buy the book - Tale of Katara.



    hey lets not be rude now
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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5355]Sep 26, 2008
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    You call it rude. I call it being blunt.

    Regardless of what Sektos said, I did discuss his criticisms. He's the one who doesn't want his criticisms to be analyzed and turned inside out.

    It's basically a case of - I can criticize Mike and Bryan's decisions but no one should be able to criticize me criticizing.

    Frankly, that's just unfair and heck even the creators remarked about the fans who think they know their characters and show better.

    Also, even if we are talking about George Lucas - there will still be fans who will defend his decisions.

    I'm a Mike and Bryan fan - as such, I am compelled to defend their decisions.
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  • Avatar of Chairunisa

    Chairunisa

    [5356]Sep 28, 2008
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    First, when someone said the lack of development relationship between Aang and katara, you will be pointed by some others as a zutarian. What I want to discuss is about the development of relationship for each character especially Aang and katara, please be focus at that point...ok!

    Second from the beginning, katara always said that the relationship between her and Aang just brother and sister relationship and nothing more even when Aang showed how his feeling about katara at DOBS.

    Third Katara said that she confuse about her feeling toward Aang at the episode EIP

    so please do telling me when katara get herself clear about her feeling toward Aang?

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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5357]Sep 28, 2008
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    CotL - ep 2 in S2 - Katara was the one who suggested kissing and she was blushing like mad.

    In the S3 box set dvd commentaries - Mae Whitman, Katara's VA revealed that Katara did have a crush on Aang since at least CotL.

    Plus the way she said it - it was like common knowledge that Katara did have a thing for Aang. Like it's obvious (not surprising) that Katara has a thing for Aang.

    The Headband - ep 2 in S3 - Katara -definitely- was not happy that Aang was a-dancing with Onji.

    The book - Tale of Katara which is basically Katara's thoughts during S2 = YUP, she does have a thing for Aang.

    S3 box set dvd commentaries, Mike and Bryan stated that Aang and Katara settled their differences peacebly and that she is definitely NOT confused anymore when she went and planted zat kiss on Aang. Mike and Bryan even pointed out that that it was she who kissed Aang, not the other way around and that she was not only NOT confused anymore but READY.

    Ready? Ready for what? Ready for a romantic relationship with Aang, obviously.

    Basically canon, the show, -showed- that Katara has romantic feelings for Aang while the commentaries -told- that Katara does love Aang in that way.

    Edited on 09/28/2008 8:41pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of Avaang18

    Avaang18

    [5358]Sep 28, 2008
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    Also on the DVD commentaries in that Women of Avatar section, Mae Whitman (sp?) Katara's voice actor, stated that Aang and Katara did kiss in CoTL AND that Katara felt motherly towards Aang, but also had a crush on him

    So with all due respect, you can take that "Katara didn't show any romantic feelings for Aang" crap and blow it out your behind

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  • Avatar of Chairunisa

    Chairunisa

    [5359]Sep 29, 2008
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    First : COTL, katara advice for the kissing after see the picture of two lovers has been kising.So fo you think that katara advice the kissing because of she has a crush on Aang or because she seen the picture and tried to find the way out of cave?

    If katara has a crush for Aang than after COTL, why she rejected Aang at EIP?

    Second : the headband; Is katara not happy because Aang dance with onji or because Aang can dance and she can not..same as how unhappy katara at the epi WBS when Aang so easy to learn WB.

    I am asking for the fact development relationship on the show not from others source, I am ok with katara and Aang, please focus..please focus that what I am questioned is lack of the developing relationship between Aang and katara.

    Any other data from the show which can be base for development relationship between Aang and Katara??
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  • Avatar of anonde

    anonde

    [5360]Sep 29, 2008
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    ??? at The Headband anti-Kataang excuse.

    Are you serious? Katara wasn't upset that Aang could dance and she couldn't.

    REMEMBER - she smiled when Aang started to dance. She only got upset when Sokka pointed out that Onji and Aang looked good together.

    Jesus Christ - if you can't even remember crucial facts to your statement like that - I really shouldn't bother even discussing with you cause I'd be like reminding you most of the time.

    Plus, in EIP Katara didn't reject Aang in the sense that she couldn't return his feelings - she asked for more time cause she was still confused about her feelings and needed to sort 'em out. What she got mad about was that Aang tried to kiss her even though she just told him she was still confused.

    Imagine if a boy still wanted to make out even after the girl told him she wasn't ready yet. She'd get upset or angry even if she does like him in that way.

    Aang basically did very stupid thing in EIP. This was resolved off-screen since Katara was clearly no longer confused when she kissed Aang at the tea-shoppe. Plus Mike and Bryan made this double-clear in the commentaries.

    As for CotL - Katara's voice actor herself says that Katara does have a crush on Aang since at least CotL. Relationship-wise, that's what counts. She does have romantic feelings for Aang.

    As for the supposed lack of development of Aang and Katara's relationship in the series - MY GOD, are you kidding me?

    There has been Aang x Katara moments since ep 101. And woah - canon has SHOWED us how their relationship developed while Avastaffers TOLD / confirmed this development. And HECK - above are just the clearly romantic moments which highlighted Katara's romantic feelings towards Aang..

    There are the HINTY moments. How about how Katara was more than ready to go with Aang, rather than stay with her family in ep 102? Or how about the way she no like Aang enjoying his Kyoshin fangirls' attention? How about the way she blushed in S2 ep "City of Walls and Secrets" when Aang told her she was pretty. And what about Katara's kisses on the cheek. I remember at least two - in S2, when Sokka interrupted Aang's confession and in S3, when the Gaang got away from the cave.

    My God, I was actually thinking that Aang x Katara couldn't be even more obvious, and that Kataangers are being a wee bit selfish if they ask for more more more! Then, I come across people who are still not convinced and find myself suddenly not blaming the Kataangers.

    What? You want Aang and Katara to make out some more?

    Edited on 09/29/2008 2:06am
    Edited 5 total times.
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