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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

If You could Change Anything about the Finale, What Would It Be?

  • Avatar of IrohtheTea

    IrohtheTea

    [61]Aug 4, 2008
    • member since: 07/28/08
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    Axrendale wrote:

    Ah, the Avatar state. Now there's a topic that people who haunted the shipping threads are very familiar with.

    What a lot of people are forgetting is that Aang had already mastered the Avatar state. In CoD he unlocked the chakra, went into the Avatar State at will, and was only stopped from kicking some serious ass by Azula's timely lightning bolt. It was stated specifically in DoBS that the only thing stopping Aang from entering the Avatar state was the residue energy from the lightning that had enfued itself with the wound. All it required to unlock itself again was the right pressure applied in order to untangle the conflicting energies. There you go, simple.

    And don't even get me started on how Aang did not have to stop loving Katara after he had unlocked the chakra, because if you do you will regret it.

    yes. Axrendale explained it perfectly.

    even if you let her go doesnt mean you dont love her anymore

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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [62]Aug 4, 2008
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    The Zuko/Azula/Katara fight.

    Well, a few different people seem to have a few different issues with this part. I'll deal with them one at a time.

    Bloodbending: No full moon. It would have somehow felt wrong to have Sozin's Comet arrive on the day of a full moon - this was the Fire Nation's special day - no one else was going to be enjoying any special privileges. In any case, the fact is that Sozin's comet was supposed to be Aang's story - his character recieved the majority of developement, although Zuko's tale was finalized somewhat, and Azula got a lot of developement too.

    Zuko getting beaten by Azula.

    The fact is, I loved this part of the finale perhaps most of all. No, it's not just because I am an Azula fan, and loved seeing her do some damage on the way down (although that was certainly a part of it), but also because I felt it was the ultimate final touch to Zuko's extensive character developement. He was forced to choose between beating Azula (if Katara had been hurt Azula would have been disqualified), and sacrificing himself to save Katara. And he made the right choice. I like that.

    Edited on 08/04/2008 10:34pm
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  • Avatar of IrohtheTea

    IrohtheTea

    [63]Aug 4, 2008
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    she was still a formidable foe to zuko EVEN when she was insane

    maybe she was more powerful because she was insane?

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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [64]Aug 4, 2008
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    IrohtheTea wrote:

    she was still a formidable foe to zuko EVEN when she was insane

    maybe she was more powerful because she was insane?


    No, I don't believe that. She couldn't even bend lightening half the time, something that she did subconsciously in regular fighting. She lost her mind and didn't have a plan. She just winged it and used brutal power to defeat Zuko.
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [65]Aug 4, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    And don't even get me started on how Aang did not have to stop loving Katara after he had unlocked the chakra, because if you do you will regret it.

    I'm kind of scared to ask this, but why? I've never fully understood it.

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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [66]Aug 5, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    And don't even get me started on how Aang did not have to stop loving Katara after he had unlocked the chakra, because if you do you will regret it.

    I'm kind of scared to ask this, but why? I've never fully understood it.

    Basically, in order to answer this question, we need to define exactly what "attachment" means. At no point did the guru ever say that Aang needed to stop loving Katara - he just had to learn to let go of his attachment to her. If attachment can be satisfactorily defined in a manner where a person who has let go of it can still be in love, then the argument is over. Since Avatar has been decidedly vague on this point (no doubt intentionally), we are forced to turn to an alternative source of wisdom; a franchise that has more experience in the ways of "attachments" than you can poke a stick at; the source of all my comparisons to the movies and the spin-off series: Star Wars.

    Anyone who has watched the Star Wars movies is familiar with the fact that the jedi too seem to have a bit of a problem with "attachment to people" (what with it leading to the dark side and all). What not so many people are aware of is that the jedi do in fact find a solution to this problem in the series of novels that tell the story of what happens after "Return of the Jedi". Here is a direct quote from one of the novels:

    "That's what attachment is, isn't it? It's not loving somebody. It's not marrying somebody. It's not having kids. It's being where, if somthing goes wrong, there's nothing left of you. It's being where, if the person you love dies, you start functioning like a droid that's been fitted with a restraining bolt".

    I think that this definition could easily apply to avatar. Letting go of attachment doesn't mean loving what you were attached to any the less. It means that if you have to make a choice between saving the person you love and saving the world, you have to be able to accept the pain of letting go of your love in order to save the world. After that, you can mourn the person you loved, but you have to be able to keep on living and get on with your life. You can feel the attachment, but you cannot allow it to have any hold over you.

    What evidence do I have that this is the right definition? Simple; it fits the facts.

    Let us consider the scenarios we have seen so far. In "The Avatar and the Firelord, Avatar Roku perfectly displayed this ability to "let go" of attachment. When the volcano errupted, his first instinct was to get his wife to safety. But he didn't. As much as he wanted to put her first, he knew that his duty as the Avatar was to hold back the lava until the entire village had been evacuated, and so he let go of her hand, and went back to make his stand.

    Aang didn't need to stop loving Katara; he just needed to learn to put the world before her. In CoD, Aang was forced to abandon his urge to protect Katara so that he could summon the Avatar state. he had to take the risk that she wouldn't survive in order to do his duty. When we get to "The Awakening", Aang shows this ability again, when despite his obvious continued feelings for Katara he leaves her in order to do his duty.

    There. That's my opinion on what Bryke have tried to set up for us. Before anyone complains that it wasn't very well explained, I would like to say that I love series that force their fans to figure things out for themselves. It keeps things interesting.

    Edited on 08/04/2008 11:38pm
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [67]Aug 5, 2008
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    Wow. That's a great way to view it. I think you're correct, even if Bryke didn't intend that to be. It's the perfect explanation. Now I can sleep peacefully.
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  • Avatar of Chaospyro

    Chaospyro

    [68]Aug 5, 2008
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    Awesome post Axrendale, you really have knack of writing great posts.
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  • Avatar of catgator185

    catgator185

    [69]Aug 5, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:

    The Zuko/Azula/Katara fight.

    Well, a few different people seem to have a few different issues with this part. I'll deal with them one at a time.

    Bloodbending: No full moon. It would have somehow felt wrong to have Sozin's Comet arrive on the day of a full moon - this was the Fire Nation's special day - no one else was going to be enjoying any special privileges. In any case, the fact is that Sozin's comet was supposed to be Aang's story - his character recieved the majority of developement, although Zuko's tale was finalized somewhat, and Azula got a lot of developement too.

    Zuko getting beaten by Azula.

    The fact is, I loved this part of the finale perhaps most of all. No, it's not just because I am an Azula fan, and loved seeing her do some damage on the way down (although that was certainly a part of it), but also because I felt it was the ultimate final touch to Zuko's extensive character developement. He was forced to choose between beating Azula (if Katara had been hurt Azula would have been disqualified), and sacrificing himself to save Katara. And he made the right choice. I like that.



    I agree that it would have been wrong for Sozin's Comet to fall on a full moon. Katara would be able to defeat anyone she wanted way too easily. She could probably even stop Ozai if she was able to bloodbend.
    Although I did kind of want to see Zuko defeat Azula. As she said their ultimate Agni Kai was destined to happen eventually. It does show how much Zuko has changed. The old Zuko may have let Katara get hit and used the opening to attack. In the season 2 finale Zuko chose power over sacrifice and now it's the other way around.
    One more thing, as Azula had gone insane I doubt she would have stopped attacking even if Zuko hadn't saved Katara. I mean what person would have told her she couldn't be Firelord if she had defeated them both like that? It was ordered by Phoenix King Ozai that she would be Firelord and I don't think anyone would care that she had won unfairly. They wouldn't dare defy their king.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [70]Aug 5, 2008
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    catgator185 wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    The Zuko/Azula/Katara fight.

    Well, a few different people seem to have a few different issues with this part. I'll deal with them one at a time.

    Bloodbending: No full moon. It would have somehow felt wrong to have Sozin's Comet arrive on the day of a full moon - this was the Fire Nation's special day - no one else was going to be enjoying any special privileges. In any case, the fact is that Sozin's comet was supposed to be Aang's story - his character recieved the majority of developement, although Zuko's tale was finalized somewhat, and Azula got a lot of developement too.

    Zuko getting beaten by Azula.

    The fact is, I loved this part of the finale perhaps most of all. No, it's not just because I am an Azula fan, and loved seeing her do some damage on the way down (although that was certainly a part of it), but also because I felt it was the ultimate final touch to Zuko's extensive character developement. He was forced to choose between beating Azula (if Katara had been hurt Azula would have been disqualified), and sacrificing himself to save Katara. And he made the right choice. I like that.

    I agree that it would have been wrong for Sozin's Comet to fall on a full moon. Katara would be able to defeat anyone she wanted way too easily. She could probably even stop Ozai if she was able to bloodbend. Although I did kind of want to see Zuko defeat Azula. As she said their ultimate Agni Kai was destined to happen eventually. It does show how much Zuko has changed. The old Zuko may have let Katara get hit and used the opening to attack. In the season 2 finale Zuko chose power over sacrifice and now it's the other way around. One more thing, as Azula had gone insane I doubt she would have stopped attacking even if Zuko hadn't saved Katara. I mean what person would have told her she couldn't be Firelord if she had defeated them both like that? It was ordered by Phoenix King Ozai that she would be Firelord and I don't think anyone would care that she had won unfairly. They wouldn't dare defy their king.

    True, the actual specifics of the rules of an Agni Kai, and whether or not Azula would have obeyed them remain somewhat unclear. But still, the point is that (as you said), Zuko could have taken Azula out while she was casting the lightning at Katara, but he didn't. Instead he almost died saving a girl who ony a month before had been promising to kill him. I think that given the choie between displaying the improvement Zuko has made with his firebending, andthe improvements he has made with his character, I would have wanted to see the improvements in his character.

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  • Avatar of carson_nicole

    carson_nicole

    [71]Aug 5, 2008
    • member since: 08/05/08
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    hmmmm...

    well first i didn't understand a freak of what that turtle said!! um i guess i would want to find out what happens with zukos mom! what happens to azula??? oh and importantly...... duh duh duh....... I WOULDN"T WANT THE SHOW TO END!

    give the lotas people some cooler outfits to go with their kick assedness!

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  • Avatar of zatchbellyo

    zatchbellyo

    [72]Aug 5, 2008
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    i wish the pheonix king died!!!!
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  • Avatar of Vesren

    Vesren

    [73]Aug 5, 2008
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    zatchbellyo wrote:
    i wish the pheonix king died!!!!


    Okay, I understand why you would want Ozai to die I did too, but it became inevitable that Ozai would live. The fact that Aang was having a hard time of thinking about Ozai was major foreshawdoing.

    Also, the creators have been known to do non-traditional endings. Almost all series seem to end with the major bad guy dieing.
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    DragonPig

    [74]Aug 5, 2008
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    id prolly make it more realistic. such as a lot more members of the white lotus thingy taking over ba sing se.
    (if it wasn't on nick i would add actual casualties throughout the whole series) more fire nation airships since they ARE going to burn down the whole earth kingdom. more firenation soldiers at ba sing se. more on how they took ba sing se back along with more shown fighting of iroh, jeong jeong, pakku, bumi + other white lotus people. thats all.

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  • Avatar of tenacon

    tenacon

    [75]Aug 5, 2008
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    OH nothing, just WHAT HAPPENED TO SPACE SWORD WHERE IS ZUKO'S MOM AND WTF HAPPENS TO TEH AIR NOMADS??????????????????????????????????????????????????
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [76]Aug 5, 2008
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    zatchbellyo wrote:
    i wish the pheonix king died!!!!

    Well, in theory, he did. The Phoenix King is no more. Ozai, however, is still alive.
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [77]Aug 5, 2008
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    tenacon wrote:
    OH nothing, just WHAT HAPPENED TO SPACE SWORD WHERE IS ZUKO'S MOM AND WTF HAPPENS TO TEH AIR NOMADS??????????????????????????????????????????????????

    1. It fell to its doom? Ahahahaha.

    2. We don't know where she is, but we can be pretty confident that she's still alive because:
    a. Zuko didn't seem disturbed at the end of the show. He showed no signs of unhappiness, which I'm sure he would have if she had passed away.
    b. The writers were going to include that last scene, so there had to be SOMETHING there. They decided, in the end, that the last scene was a better choice to end the series.

    3. That's something we all want to know. Aang might help repopulate But I think that's the only hope. If that doesn't happen, then the next series (if there will be one) will be about a past Avatar.
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    Falcondude123

    [78]Aug 5, 2008
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    I think the Guru must spike his pickled bananas with some kind of powerful crap and got aang to hillucinate while he fed him verbal bullcrap about attachment and love and crap. Crap crap crap.

    What a crappy day this has been. And to think I was trying to have a good outlook on it and be positive, so that you wouldn't have to deal with m crappy attitude... oh, CRAP!!
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  • Avatar of MaddoKos

    MaddoKos

    [79]Aug 5, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    And don't even get me started on how Aang did not have to stop loving Katara after he had unlocked the chakra, because if you do you will regret it.

    I'm kind of scared to ask this, but why? I've never fully understood it.

    Basically, in order to answer this question, we need to define exactly what "attachment" means. At no point did the guru ever say that Aang needed to stop loving Katara - he just had to learn to let go of his attachment to her. If attachment can be satisfactorily defined in a manner where a person who has let go of it can still be in love, then the argument is over. Since Avatar has been decidedly vague on this point (no doubt intentionally), we are forced to turn to an alternative source of wisdom; a franchise that has more experience in the ways of "attachments" than you can poke a stick at; the source of all my comparisons to the movies and the spin-off series: Star Wars.

    Anyone who has watched the Star Wars movies is familiar with the fact that the jedi too seem to have a bit of a problem with "attachment to people" (what with it leading to the dark side and all). What not so many people are aware of is that the jedi do in fact find a solution to this problem in the series of novels that tell the story of what happens after "Return of the Jedi". Here is a direct quote from one of the novels:

    "That's what attachment is, isn't it? It's not loving somebody. It's not marrying somebody. It's not having kids. It's being where, if somthing goes wrong, there's nothing left of you. It's being where, if the person you love dies, you start functioning like a droid that's been fitted with a restraining bolt".

    I think that this definition could easily apply to avatar. Letting go of attachment doesn't mean loving what you were attached to any the less. It means that if you have to make a choice between saving the person you love and saving the world, you have to be able to accept the pain of letting go of your love in order to save the world. After that, you can mourn the person you loved, but you have to be able to keep on living and get on with your life. You can feel the attachment, but you cannot allow it to have any hold over you.

    What evidence do I have that this is the right definition? Simple; it fits the facts.

    Let us consider the scenarios we have seen so far. In "The Avatar and the Firelord, Avatar Roku perfectly displayed this ability to "let go" of attachment. When the volcano errupted, his first instinct was to get his wife to safety. But he didn't. As much as he wanted to put her first, he knew that his duty as the Avatar was to hold back the lava until the entire village had been evacuated, and so he let go of her hand, and went back to make his stand.

    Aang didn't need to stop loving Katara; he just needed to learn to put the world before her. In CoD, Aang was forced to abandon his urge to protect Katara so that he could summon the Avatar state. he had to take the risk that she wouldn't survive in order to do his duty. When we get to "The Awakening", Aang shows this ability again, when despite his obvious continued feelings for Katara he leaves her in order to do his duty.

    There. That's my opinion on what Bryke have tried to set up for us. Before anyone complains that it wasn't very well explained, I would like to say that I love series that force their fans to figure things out for themselves. It keeps things interesting.



    I was going to say something about this, but Axrendale's got it covered. As usual.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [80]Aug 5, 2008
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    MaddoKos wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    And don't even get me started on how Aang did not have to stop loving Katara after he had unlocked the chakra, because if you do you will regret it.

    I'm kind of scared to ask this, but why? I've never fully understood it.

    Basically, in order to answer this question, we need to define exactly what "attachment" means. At no point did the guru ever say that Aang needed to stop loving Katara - he just had to learn to let go of his attachment to her. If attachment can be satisfactorily defined in a manner where a person who has let go of it can still be in love, then the argument is over. Since Avatar has been decidedly vague on this point (no doubt intentionally), we are forced to turn to an alternative source of wisdom; a franchise that has more experience in the ways of "attachments" than you can poke a stick at; the source of all my comparisons to the movies and the spin-off series: Star Wars.

    Anyone who has watched the Star Wars movies is familiar with the fact that the jedi too seem to have a bit of a problem with "attachment to people" (what with it leading to the dark side and all). What not so many people are aware of is that the jedi do in fact find a solution to this problem in the series of novels that tell the story of what happens after "Return of the Jedi". Here is a direct quote from one of the novels:

    "That's what attachment is, isn't it? It's not loving somebody. It's not marrying somebody. It's not having kids. It's being where, if somthing goes wrong, there's nothing left of you. It's being where, if the person you love dies, you start functioning like a droid that's been fitted with a restraining bolt".

    I think that this definition could easily apply to avatar. Letting go of attachment doesn't mean loving what you were attached to any the less. It means that if you have to make a choice between saving the person you love and saving the world, you have to be able to accept the pain of letting go of your love in order to save the world. After that, you can mourn the person you loved, but you have to be able to keep on living and get on with your life. You can feel the attachment, but you cannot allow it to have any hold over you.

    What evidence do I have that this is the right definition? Simple; it fits the facts.

    Let us consider the scenarios we have seen so far. In "The Avatar and the Firelord, Avatar Roku perfectly displayed this ability to "let go" of attachment. When the volcano errupted, his first instinct was to get his wife to safety. But he didn't. As much as he wanted to put her first, he knew that his duty as the Avatar was to hold back the lava until the entire village had been evacuated, and so he let go of her hand, and went back to make his stand.

    Aang didn't need to stop loving Katara; he just needed to learn to put the world before her. In CoD, Aang was forced to abandon his urge to protect Katara so that he could summon the Avatar state. he had to take the risk that she wouldn't survive in order to do his duty. When we get to "The Awakening", Aang shows this ability again, when despite his obvious continued feelings for Katara he leaves her in order to do his duty.

    There. That's my opinion on what Bryke have tried to set up for us. Before anyone complains that it wasn't very well explained, I would like to say that I love series that force their fans to figure things out for themselves. It keeps things interesting.

    I was going to say something about this, but Axrendale's got it covered. As usual.

    Thank you, I try

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