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how does azula bend blue fire

  • Avatar of JonathonWolf

    JonathonWolf

    [81]Oct 18, 2006
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    dumbTVnut wrote:
    JonathonWolf,

    that was beautiful, I laugh all the way. If you ever want to argue science I'll go to a science forum, but here your argument is useless if not hilarious.


    Again with a rebuttal without substance.?? This entire thread is about the discussion of the blue fire.?? It's all speculation using real world physics to create a connection with the physics within the show.?? Comic books do the same thing we are doing here: creating rational explanations for what is considered canon.?? Wolverine was suddenly born with claws instead of having them put into him like readers had assumed for decades.?? Why??? Because it made the most sense.?? Even though it is a world where someone can be hit by radiation and gain superpowers instead of cancer, the writers used as much real world physics as they could to create that connection with the reader.?? Yes, it's a cartoon; but it's a cartoon set within a world where laws of nature are the same here as they are there.?? It's a world heaped in the ancient traditions of East Asia.?? You criticize me and anyone else that uses science and logic, when that is the entire point of this thread.?? All you've shown is that you are incapable of a competent rebuttal, so you try to save face by insulting any intelligent attempts at answering the thread title.

    My proof of blue fire is every time Azula shoots fire, it is in a fire qualities and accompanied by the fire sound effect.?? Her technique is exactly the same as any other firebender when using regular fire.?? The Chase is the best example, though any time she shoots fire shows it's flame.?? Whenever we see her flame remaining out past her control, we see that it goes from blue to orange/red.?? The column of fire she dropped on Aang shifted from blue to red while he used his staff to prevent it from hitting him.?? When she shot at Aang as he jumped up the walls, the flames burned for a short while and shifted from blue to red.?? When she set the perimiter of the room on fire when Aang was trapped in the rubble, it went from blue to red.?? Creating lightning has been shown to be a technique that takes eight to ten seconds with a fair amount of movement.?? It is usually accompanied by arcs of electricity as the technique is being performed.?? One could wonder if the arcs are the result of a small lack of control or if they are an inescable part of the technique.?? Also, we saw in Zuko Alone that she used regular fire when she was younger and doesn't now.?? This isn't irrefutable proof.?? The only reason I can come up with for why her blue flame isn't a mixture of regular fire and lightning is because we were told by Iroh that lightning requires splitting one's energy into positive and negative parts.?? Mixing separated energy with regular energy doesn't seem like it would be too great an idea since we can assume the split energy would come back together and explode as soon as concentration ended.
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  • Avatar of Murraymuzz

    Murraymuzz

    [82]Oct 18, 2006
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    I think we can safely assume that Azula can bend blue flames while others cannot is because she is a firebending "prodigy" she advance so quickly as a young child leaving the competition behind. As to how she bends blue fire i haven't seen a difference in her movements when shooting fire, so we can say she shoots fire like anyone else except due to her mastery of firebending blue flames result instead of normal orange-yellow??colour flames.
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  • Avatar of MCMLXVI

    MCMLXVI

    [83]Oct 18, 2006
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    Eman5805 wrote:
    "Power in Firebending comes from the breath, not the muscles. The breath becomes energy in the body. The energy extends past your limbs and becomes fire."

    that's straight from the show...so obviously according to that Azula has mastered her breathing, if you notice has Azula EVER appeared breathless in a fight? ... completely in control of her breathing and gets the most energy possible...and her natural skill allows her to control that blue fire with efficiency
    Every woman should learn how to use her diaphragm.
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  • Avatar of dumbTVnut

    dumbTVnut

    [84]Oct 18, 2006
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    JonathonWolf,

    I have given you my logic repeatedly yet you have failed to comprehend it. You can't use real world physics for a fantasy world! What laws of nature allow telekinetic powers and spiritual nether worlds? The physics of a fantasy world not definitive, there simply assumptions made by the writers of which the writers can make any assumption they want. For all you know the writers gave azula blue fire because she is a girl, if that is so then all your attempts to rationalize it are in vain! Where does the thread say that we need to use science, why not try to rationalize what the writers and animators were thinking rather then make up physical models? I guarantee your going to be more accurate if you try to determine what the writers were thinking.

    And by the way smurf are neither insect or mammals, it was trick question because smurfs are actually copyrighting concepts existing solely as the ideas of a cartoonist, and as plastic figurines, drawing on paper and other artistic expressions. I doubt the cartoonist ever considered what The taxonomic classification of smurfs are, when asked the cartoonist will either say what ever idea comes to s/he mind or will question your sanity for asking such a question. Get the idea yet.
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  • Avatar of VincentMagius

    VincentMagius

    [85]Oct 18, 2006
    • member since: 05/22/04
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    dumbTVnut wrote:
    JonathonWolf,

    I have given you my logic repeatedly yet you have failed to comprehend it. You can't use real world physics for a fantasy world! What laws of nature allow telekinetic powers and spiritual nether worlds? The physics of a fantasy world not definitive, there simply assumptions made by the writers of which the writers can make any assumption they want. For all you know the writers gave azula blue fire because she is a girl, if that is so then all your attempts to rationalize it are in vain! Where does the thread say that we need to use science, why not try to rationalize what the writers and animators were thinking rather then make up physical models? I guarantee your going to be more accurate if you try to determine what the writers were thinking.

    And by the way smurf are neither insect or mammals, it was trick question because smurfs are actually copyrighting concepts existing solely as the ideas of a cartoonist, and as plastic figurines, drawing on paper and other artistic expressions. I doubt the cartoonist ever considered what The taxonomic classification of smurfs are, when asked the cartoonist will either say what ever idea comes to s/he mind or will question your sanity for asking such a question. Get the idea yet.


    Yet, you keep arguing with him and keep asking questions with answers you don't like that have been given repeatedly. It seems like everyone is pretty much agreed on the subject but you. As to smurfs, they were referred to as mammals in the show. Thanks for playing.
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  • Avatar of dumbTVnut

    dumbTVnut

    [86]Oct 18, 2006
    • member since: 12/21/05
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    VincentMagius wrote:
    dumbTVnut wrote:
    JonathonWolf,

    I have given you my logic repeatedly yet you have failed to comprehend it. You can't use real world physics for a fantasy world! What laws of nature allow telekinetic powers and spiritual nether worlds? The physics of a fantasy world not definitive, there simply assumptions made by the writers of which the writers can make any assumption they want. For all you know the writers gave azula blue fire because she is a girl, if that is so then all your attempts to rationalize it are in vain! Where does the thread say that we need to use science, why not try to rationalize what the writers and animators were thinking rather then make up physical models? I guarantee your going to be more accurate if you try to determine what the writers were thinking.

    And by the way smurf are neither insect or mammals, it was trick question because smurfs are actually copyrighting concepts existing solely as the ideas of a cartoonist, and as plastic figurines, drawing on paper and other artistic expressions. I doubt the cartoonist ever considered what The taxonomic classification of smurfs are, when asked the cartoonist will either say what ever idea comes to s/he mind or will question your sanity for asking such a question. Get the idea yet.


    Yet, you keep arguing with him and keep asking questions with answers you don't like that have been given repeatedly. It seems like everyone is pretty much agreed on the subject but you. As to smurfs, they were referred to as mammals in the show. Thanks for playing.


    Answers give by what authority? What is wrong with a appeal to popularity and why are you doing it? The show calls smurf mammals? Playing what?
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  • Avatar of Lachlaan

    Lachlaan

    [87]Oct 18, 2006
    • member since: 10/05/06
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    Now I've been reading most of everyone's posts on the topic and I have to say that it's a little disappointing that nobody has mentioned that from what we can see in the show, bending in general draws it's powers from Thai-Chi or however it's spelled. Nobody considered that the laws that apply to that universe are all the same except maybe for the Thai-Chi related laws. If in real life a Thai-Chi practicioner can stop a spearhead with his neck, why wouldn't someone(in an alternate and different universe "laws of physics"-wise) be able to manipulate the elements just by using their energy. I honestly don't know much about Thai-Chi but I do know some stuff about physics and I really think that most of you have mixed up some terms or concepts with that you want to believe. First of all what firebenders use are plasma .. fire itself is defined as plasma, fire being just the popular term... Be it 100 degree hot fire or blue fire or whatever .. it is plasma. lightning is plasma as well but it just works differently than fire because it's directed at something(Difference in Electric Tension or Electrical potential). Now although to my regret .. I have to agree with the dumb tv nut I do think that the blue fire was introduced just to make Azule special. I for one believe that the power of a bender comes from his technique, if Azula can bend blue fire(actually energy drawn from her own body) it's just because she has more control. If she were to use the same force she used to chop down a house whenever she's aiming for a puny warrior she would be just like Xiao, uncontrollable, thus making her unable to bend blue fire in the first place. Anyone who has watched some martial arts movies and/or cartoons knows that the worst thing you can do is try too hard and act without thinking. Since the energy she uses is her own .. I guess it would be stupid to use 100% of the energy of each breath since if you miss there's no energy left to defend yourself. I think Azula is just more calculated and considers herself to be Elite, that's why she uses blue fire instead of orange. In a sense the fact that the blue fire is hotter or just more complicated to bend is a sign that she wants to constantly better herself and be in control of her own powers/body w/e Well I think i've overdone it for my first post so I'll check for replies later.
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  • Avatar of Eman5805

    Eman5805

    [88]Oct 18, 2006
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    MCMLXVI wrote:
    Eman5805 wrote:
    "Power in Firebending comes from the breath, not the muscles. The breath becomes energy in the body. The energy extends past your limbs and becomes fire."

    that's straight from the show...so obviously according to that Azula has mastered her breathing, if you notice has Azula EVER appeared breathless in a fight? ... completely in control of her breathing and gets the most energy possible...and her natural skill allows her to control that blue fire with efficiency
    Every woman should learn how to use her diaphragm.

    Heh and??I said this a couple pages ago...but they won't stop with the physical science class...it aint that serious

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  • Avatar of dumbTVnut

    dumbTVnut

    [89]Oct 18, 2006
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    Lachlaan,

    I required to say by hte cult of TV.com: WELCOME, WE LOVE YOU!!! Let me be honest with you, don't argue science with them, that what they want you to do, they will immediately pull out their text books and argue every point of yours with ever every increase level of sophistication, the purpose of this is simply because they want to make them selves look smarter then you, why they do this I don???t know, perhaps to satisfy some inferiority complex that they have, or perhaps to waste what every free time they have because they have no social life.
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  • Avatar of VincentMagius

    VincentMagius

    [90]Oct 18, 2006
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    dumbTVnut wrote:
    Answers give by what authority? What is wrong with a appeal to popularity and why are you doing it? The show calls smurf mammals? Playing what?


    Logic and fact are my authorities. Nothing is wrong with an appeal, but you aren't supporting your argument. I can't even tell what you are arguing for except to argue. All I see is you "handling" the posts and only seeing every other sentence. Yes, the show calls smurfs mammals.

    If you don't know the game, you shouldn't be playing.

    @Lachlaan:
    TaiChi has not been mentioned specifically, but chi/spiritual energy has been. I think it was mentioned once or twice, so you probably just missed it. Not a problem.

    I want to say the discussion took a turn when discussing what blue fire can and cannot do, specifically against rock or a collapsable shield. Since you seem to have a better grasp of the science, you might be able to throw something in and end it.
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  • Avatar of dumbTVnut

    dumbTVnut

    [92]Oct 18, 2006
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    VincentMagius wrote:
    dumbTVnut wrote:
    Answers give by what authority? What is wrong with a appeal to popularity and why are you doing it? The show calls smurf mammals? Playing what?


    Logic and fact are my authorities. Nothing is wrong with an appeal, but you aren't supporting your argument. I can't even tell what you are arguing for except to argue. All I see is you "handling" the posts and only seeing every other sentence. Yes, the show calls smurfs mammals.

    If you don't know the game, you shouldn't be playing.

    @Lachlaan:
    TaiChi has not been mentioned specifically, but chi/spiritual energy has been. I think it was mentioned once or twice, so you probably just missed it. Not a problem.

    I want to say the discussion took a turn when discussing what blue fire can and cannot do, specifically against rock or a collapsable shield. Since you seem to have a better grasp of the science, you might be able to throw something in and end it.


    As I have mention many times now, there is no logic with arguing about a cartoon. A appeal to popularity is arguement fallacy, telling me that just because everyone is against me, does not mean I'm wrong. Wow the show calls smurfs mammals, you go on about facts but you never seem to mention refreances, facts can be what ever you want them to be if you don't have to show proof. I can't beleive your taking up the smurf argument, it was a illustrative point on how to have a ridiculously useless topic of argument, I will admit I got the illustration wrong: it was if smurfs are mammals or some kind of egg laying creature, basically do smurfs gestate internally or externally? God that is funny! as for the game, yes I do in fact know what the game is, I explained it to Lachlaan.
    Edited on 10/18/2006 7:14am
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  • Avatar of Lachlaan

    Lachlaan

    [93]Oct 18, 2006
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    @Vincent Magius

    Honestly I for one don't think it would be possible for a fire blast in real life to blow a rock appart in this particular context. That fire is neither heated up gas it's just electrons in a plasma state which would have very little effect on a massive object like a rock and as for the shields being melted, well again there is only talk of energy, nobody ever said that the fire that azura or any other firebender uses is made up of gas .. it's just plasma. Considering how the fire moves it's just normal regular fire, not condensed plasma or anything of the sort. So just from the appearance I would have to say that the blue flame couldn't melt anything if that something isn't exposed for a longer period of time .. and NEVER would it be able to blast something away.. I mean geez it's not like she uses TNT .. it's plasma .. the fire in explosions that can throw a person meters into the air is just some volatile substance exploding(expanding it's volume) and thus moving stuff. I personally do not know where the creators of the show consider benders take their power from so I just won't try to be smart and say "it's possible"/"it's not possible". I just really like the idea on the show.

    &Yeah I am aware that Thai-Chi was never mentioned in the show, just Ki. But the actual moves they use, the bending process itself .. I just asumed it was inspired by Thai-Chi since the moves are the same from what I can see. Most beliefs about Ki are that you can move the Ki through your body either by imagining the energy inside you and focusing it to a certain part of your body(and possible other objects) or as Thai-Chi approaches the topic, by using martial arts moves the channel the Ki energy through your body and focusing it. Now this is all just my opionion I just wanted to make myself heard All this is speculation because we have no idea what the laws of physics in the universe would be or what's possible and what's not. After all we don't even know all the laws of physics in our own world. I don't even think this thread is that important overall .. you should just enjoy the show, it's not like they used an everyday object to do an extraordinary thing. They used blue fire to break a rock .. you don't even know what THEIR blue fire is made up of. When we see exactly in real life what a blue flame can do to a rock then maybe it would be our right to comment. But I'm no expert, I haven't done any experiments, I'll stick with "No comment". I just kinda got upset by the fact that everybody was throwing science around and it's not at all about that in the show. Iroh didn't explain to Zuko "You see, the power in firebending comes from the temperature output of your flames and by the number of energy molecules that your body creates using the quantity of oxygen you inhale.So breathe deep and you will have an energetical output of 2.4KiloJoules thus being able to smash that rock over there!" .. Jeez calm down it's a cartoon, enjoy the fiction, allow yourself to believe what happens in it because you ain't gonna see it anywhere else. I'm going to end this whole discussion with e neat and simple "Free Your Mind!" quote from The Matrix keep it real

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  • Avatar of tc2r

    tc2r

    [95]Oct 18, 2006
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    Lachlaan wrote:

    @Vincent Magius

    Honestly I for one don't think it would be possible for a fire blast in real life to blow a rock appart in this particular context. That fire is neither heated up gas it's just electrons in a plasma state which would have very little effect on a massive object like a rock and as for the shields being melted, well again there is only talk of energy, nobody ever said that the fire that azura or any other firebender uses is made up of gas .. it's just plasma. Considering how the fire moves it's just normal regular fire, not condensed plasma or anything of the sort. So just from the appearance I would have to say that the blue flame couldn't melt anything if that something isn't exposed for a longer period of time .. and NEVER would it be able to blast something away.. I mean geez it's not like she uses TNT .. it's plasma .. the fire in explosions that can throw a person meters into the air is just some volatile substance exploding(expanding it's volume) and thus moving stuff. I personally do not know where the creators of the show consider benders take their power from so I just won't try to be smart and say "it's possible"/"it's not possible". I just really like the idea on the show.

    &Yeah I am aware that Thai-Chi was never mentioned in the show, just Ki. But the actual moves they use, the bending process itself .. I just asumed it was inspired by Thai-Chi since the moves are the same from what I can see. Most beliefs about Ki are that you can move the Ki through your body either by imagining the energy inside you and focusing it to a certain part of your body(and possible other objects) or as Thai-Chi approaches the topic, by using martial arts moves the channel the Ki energy through your body and focusing it. Now this is all just my opionion I just wanted to make myself heard All this is speculation because we have no idea what the laws of physics in the universe would be or what's possible and what's not. After all we don't even know all the laws of physics in our own world. I don't even think this thread is that important overall .. you should just enjoy the show, it's not like they used an everyday object to do an extraordinary thing. They used blue fire to break a rock .. you don't even know what THEIR blue fire is made up of. When we see exactly in real life what a blue flame can do to a rock then maybe it would be our right to comment. But I'm no expert, I haven't done any experiments, I'll stick with "No comment". I just kinda got upset by the fact that everybody was throwing science around and it's not at all about that in the show. Iroh didn't explain to Zuko "You see, the power in firebending comes from the temperature output of your flames and by the number of energy molecules that your body creates using the quantity of oxygen you inhale.So breathe deep and you will have an energetical output of 2.4KiloJoules thus being able to smash that rock over there!" .. Jeez calm down it's a cartoon, enjoy the fiction, allow yourself to believe what happens in it because you ain't gonna see it anywhere else. I'm going to end this whole discussion with e neat and simple "Free Your Mind!" quote from The Matrix keep it real



    you're awesome. Btw I think that the reason the fire blast broke through was more of an "force of ki" rather than element. In this show the elements seem to be just an extention of said ki, and as you've stated before, martial artist have used this ki to stop spears thrown at their neck (using their neck) and to break spears simply by charging into them with their bodies (without being scared/cut/etc). So using the same approach, you can clearly see that Azula's ki simply was more focused when she did that second atk and sent Aang and his "defense wall" flying. It simply became a matter of who's ki was more focused, and his was spread throughout the sheild while hers was put into a single burst.
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  • Avatar of Lachlaan

    Lachlaan

    [96]Oct 18, 2006
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    Well yeah, I totally agree, this show is more about Ki and how benders use it rather than physics. Also I noticed that there is great inportance in the moves they use. To use some IQ test language, "Fighting is to Bending like a naval battle would be to playing BattleShips". It's more technical than it is practical. If you look closely you'll see these things in most episodes. Iroh explains the ways of each nation bending-wise when he tries to teach Zuko the lightning technique.Episode 9 Season 2 - Bitter work. Oh and he does mention some physics when he talks about the lightning technique, positive and negative energy, separating them (creating Electrical Potential between two points) all that jazz well I hope all this is settled. It just seems silly to me to ask such questions and expect in depth answers. Azula firebends because she can cool down her temper. As Iroh says red fire is fueled by rage, lightning comes from a more calculated mind(or something like that) and lightning is a more refined form of fire bending. My guess is that Blue fire is an intermediate form of firebending between red fire and lightning. So she's able to firebend blue fire just because she has a cool temper(meaning she doesn't try to blast away everything with her awesome power like some of you might like).
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  • Avatar of dumbTVnut

    dumbTVnut

    [97]Oct 18, 2006
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    tc2r,

    They or you have not proven anything. No, real physics don't apply to cartoons, I could say it is the noodly appendages of a giant pasta based deity that hold the characters down, not gravity, unless the writers say other wise (and someone actually show a reference or cited proof that they said it, which no one has), there is no way you can prove otherwise! Of course cartoons follow rule, but you can???t derive those rules with any certainty, the creators could step in at any time and say the flying spaghetti monster is doing it, and then you will be wrong. When you attempt to rationalize what you see in the show does it every occur to you that maybe the creators just are trying to make things superficially realistic, that perhaps they are not making physical calculations, the writers did not say ???well azula jumps off a 30 meter tall drill she will have X amount of kinetic energy so she should break her spine in 3 places??? they say ???yeah she will jump off the drill and it will look cool???, but then some fan say ???No she won???t break her spine because kinetic transfers and space time fluctuations and blab blab bla?????? attempting to rationalize what they saw, when any rationalization will work because the event it self is fictional, there are no facts to it! Rather then trying to define a fictional universe that can change by the will of the writers at any time, you should ask your self what happening in our reality: what were the writers thinking, are the writers omnipotent and have unbreakable laws happening at all time in the show, without the possiblity of contradictions ever, or are they just winging it? Why does X happen and not Y, could it be explained better by some asinine convoluted hypothesis or that it simply benefits the plot of the show?
    Edited on 10/18/2006 8:52am
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  • Avatar of AvAr1c3

    AvAr1c3

    [98]Oct 18, 2006
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    @lachlaan

    w0w it never occured to me that firebenders=plasmabenders hehe that completes all the states of matter... w0w... i have got to tell this to my... anyway yes i agree that moves in firebending are like tai chi... and i ask you, earthbending is like what? because i have always been amazed on how earthbenders move... their moves are solid and accurate with a touch of grace...

    -----------------------------

    i was intrigued about someone mentioning ozai, white flame, and coughing??at the same time... hmm... it made me think...

    blue flame... well my mother (since i was a child) have always told me that blue flame is the purest flame because it burns without carbon... anyway! thats what she said ...

    i think azula has blue flame because... she's born with it like that guy from flame of recca? or because shes a prodigy? or both? i dont think they gave her blue flame just because shes a girl ... thats sexism...(females being better than males not the other way around)

    ------------------------------

    last words: please please please dont get mad/ irritated/ argue with me i'm not looking for a fight i just wanted to post because i was really impressed with what lachlaan said specially about the plasma thing... hehe

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  • Avatar of VincentMagius

    VincentMagius

    [99]Oct 18, 2006
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    dumbTVnut wrote:
    blah, blah, blah, blah


    @Lachlan
    You are partially right about the style. Most are based on different styles of Kungfu. Water bending is based on Tai Chi, which I don't believe is actually part of Kungfu. Turbonick.com has a few clips about it from the DVDs and you might be able to find some on youtube.
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  • Avatar of dumbTVnut

    dumbTVnut

    [100]Oct 18, 2006
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    VincentMagius,

    I can see I have degraded you to the state of childish retorts. I win.
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