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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Zuko and Toph

  • Avatar of DramaticTV

    DramaticTV

    [41]Dec 14, 2008
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    Overall Opinion on this thread:

    I.Azula vs. Toph/Katara and why Zuko picked Katara A. I think you guys might be putting Toph on a pedistal here (expression meaning making someone seem better than they are) Yes Toph is amazing and yes she invented metal-bending (which no earthbender had ever done before including Boomy, a member of the White Lotus). But Toph's discovery of metal-bending was factored basically 99% due to the fact that she was blind. As I remember that moment she pounds her metal cage and "sees" the earth inside of the metal. If Toph hadn't been blind it is very fair to argue that she wouldn't have escaped her cage. Toph also has had her whole life to study earthbending (she's 12) and she learned personally from the Badger Moles who originated Earth Bending.

    B. Katara started learning bending just that year (the show spans out over 1 year in time I believe it is said during the last episode by Aang "It's hard to believe that we were fighting only a year ago" or something along those lines.) and she did it with the instruction from a water master. Yes Toph had been an Earth Bending master herself and conquored an area, but that was fighting other EARTHBENDERS. Toph could sense every little foot movement they made and foresaw every attack once again due to her not being able to see. Katara is an extremly powerful bender as well and with less time to practice than Azula had. She is a strategic and resourceful fighter (see match between her and her master (season 1 finale part 1) and her match with Azula and how it was resolved. Toph is a much more "Wait and Listen" fighter, yes but that's just her blind style of Earth-Bending. I find it easy to argue that if Toph had had her sight she wouldn't be near as good a bender as if she had been born without it. (Her parents wouldn't have sheltered her if she wasn't blind, then Toph wouldn't have been as rebelious). Toph without her "blind-sight" (with Azula flying) would easily be taken down (see Aang shooting a gust of wind @ Toph knocking her out of the Area in the episode: Blind Bandit). Toph is rediculously uncomfortable out of her "sight zone" and the overall fight would prove hard for her to handle.

    C. Blood-Bending and Katara's feelings about it. The ONLY TIME KATARA EVER BLOOD BENDED was during a full moon and as Sokka was about to forcably kill Aang being blood-bended. The only reason she could preform this was due to the fact that A. there was a full moon B. She cares deeply enough for Aang and her brother to impulsivly go against her will to save them. (she did NOT blood bend during the episode Southern Raiders)

    D. Azula's last stand was Azula's most and least powerful point in the show. Yes Azula had Sozin's Comet(sp?) to help her with her fire/lightning bending amazingly, but she was in a very unstable mental state. Just earlier that day she had banished the Dai-Lee (her loyal bodyguards) from her palace because they had left The Earth King for her. (she considered them untrustworthy because they switched to her own side) She also had banished a servant for "possibly killing her" with a cherry pit. She had been hallucinating about her mother (which is revealed to be the source of anger in Azula) which was a breaking point for her when she started to cut her own hair. But overall Azula was a VERY strategic and well thought character. Everything she did she planned ahead for, and the only time that something had gone wrong that she didn't foresee was that Mai and Ty Lee betraying her. Toph would not be able to "see" Azula if she was flying and flying doesn't take that much energy for Azula to do. (see prisonbreak part 2 for Mai and Ty Lee's bertrayl as well as Azula flying effortlessly) To the poster before who pointed out that Toph stopped "Blue Fire". Yes blue fire is hot but not hot enough to melt earth. A solid rock wall doesn't melt that easily. (I can't give temperatures at the moment but if you would like to wikipedia melting point of grainite- the most common continental rock) The "Blue Fire" in this particular animation shows power, yes but it doesn't have any actual value. When Zuko and Azula's fire bending attacks collide various times the blows stop. Azula's fire doesn't go any farther. nor does Zuko's. This means that the force of the "Blue Fire" and the force of the "Red Fire" are the same.

    F. Zuko's choice?
    Zuko picks Katara due to his history with her and her various previous encounters with Azula. Toph had very little direct previous history with Azula.

    Direct conversation before choosing who goes where...

    Iroh: but Azula will be there waiting for you.

    Zuko: I can handle Azula

    Iroh: Not alone, you'll need help

    Zuko: You're right. Katara (Katara looks up) How would you like to help me put Azula in her place?

    Katara: It would be my pleasure.
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  • Avatar of ThisCrazyGuy

    ThisCrazyGuy

    [42]Dec 14, 2008
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    panthean wrote:
    libraman_92 wrote:
    There seems to be a misunderstanding that I was sure was about to happen. Alot of people believe that if you are a fully-trained Bloodbender, you can bend without the Full Moon to boost your strength. This is preposterous indeed. That's like saying that a fully-trained Firebender could bend Sozin's Comet style without Sozin's Comet. To bend someone's insides takes alot of power; that kind of power is only accessible to a Waterbender during the full moon.

    At any rate, in order to Bloodbend, it should be the night; when in the show has ANY of the bloodbenders manipulated its power during the day?


    the southern raiders...
    There was a Full Moon there... This has already been explained, unless you mean something else.
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  • Avatar of ThisCrazyGuy

    ThisCrazyGuy

    [43]Dec 14, 2008
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    I don't want to hear any "What if Toph wasn't blind?" comments... The point is, she IS blind, never mind what she would be like if she wasn't... If we took Toph's blindness away, one could argue that we may as well change the whole entire character of Toph, because her blindness is almost a representation of who she is, and why she is such a popular and creative character. That would be like me saying things along the line of; "Why don't we take Azula's Blue Fire away?"... It doesn't matter what Toph used to create Metalbending, the point is, she DID create Metalbending, using her natural talent and intelligence. Now, I'm not discounting Katara, she is the best Waterbender in the world, but in no way, shape or from does she equal Toph's level... Rival's it maybe, but that is as far as I will go... And I would like to point out, Toph can literally HEAR THINGS IN THE AIR, so Azula flying, (with Blue Fire as her jet propulsion) would prove not a very intelligent decision made by Azula. In "The Blind Bandit", Toph quite clearly hears an agile, acrobatic, athletically gifted Earthbending man about to sneak up on her with and Air-based attack. He was as silent as a fly, and he STILL got his ass kicked... Azula's Blue Fire wouldn't just give off more noise than anything, but it would also give off heat, so Toph would be able to sense Azula quite well if that were the case... I don't think me, nor Libraman are over exaggerating Toph's abilities at all... Everything we've said about her is true.

    1). Toph is the CREATOR of METALbending, the special art for Earthbending, and what God-like characters like MAGNETO would bend if they were in the Avatar universe.

    2). Toph has defeated the Dai Li, descendants of men who were trained by the most famous Earth Avatar, and by far one of the most cold Avatar's there has ever been, KYOSHI (this is quite an underrated accomplishment in my opinion).

    3). Toph has regularly owned Earthbenders three/four times her age (with absolute accuracy).

    4). Toph is arguably the greatest Earthbender in the world, and proved to be a quick learner when she received teachings from the Badgermoles, of course the original Earthbenders.

    5). All this, and she's a 12 year old blind girl, who looks like nothing more than a harmless little doll. Toph may be a cute girl, but far from a doll, is this master...

    Toph would not be able to "see" Azula, if Azula was Fire-flying, but she would sure as hell be able to HEAR her... Toph wasn't used to Air-based attacks when Aang blasted her in "The Blind Bandit", she will never make that mistake again, and I'm sure she learned from her past na??ve choices towards Air-based attacks... Toph clearly over came this "Air-weakness" problem... Toph can sense things in the Air, this girl has exceptional hearing, and Azula's jet-like Blue Fire ROCKET would make more noise than quite possibly anything else that Toph has ever had to detect in the Air before... I think it is quite weak that you are basing this battle on one move that Azula might be able to pull, if she gets lucky enough...

    Azula's signature Blue Fire is indeed more concussive and forceful than the usual yellow, red and orange Fire we see. The reason both Azula and Zuko's Fire in "Sozin's Comet" was so equal, was because of the fact that Azula didn't have the mental sanity to back her's up, while Zuko had previously received a passport to the teachings of the true meaning of Firebending. I think that Toph being able to block her Fire is a decent accomplishment.

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  • Avatar of DramaticTV

    DramaticTV

    [44]Dec 14, 2008
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    You're still putting Toph on a pedestal though...

    1.) as I said the only reason she created metal bending was due to the fact that she was blind. It had very little to do with her bending abilities. (yes she would have to be a powerful bender to metalbend, but just realizing HOW is the biggest step in my opinion)

    2.) There were others who fought the Dai Li, not just Toph. (Appa, Sokka, Jet, Katara,etc.)

    3.) fighting an earthbender and fighting a different bender (Air/water/fire) are completly different topics I think. The fighting styles used by each bender is different. Toph can easily handle earthbenders because she knows where to attack (when fighting "The Boulder" she "saw" his foot come up into the air leaving the other one weak. She struck that foot. My personal opinion is that Toph and Katara are about the same. I don't think that opinion is going to change for me, nor is your opinion of Katara
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  • Avatar of ThisCrazyGuy

    ThisCrazyGuy

    [45]Dec 14, 2008
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    DramaticTV wrote:
    You're still putting Toph on a pedestal though... 1.) as I said the only reason she created metal bending was due to the fact that she was blind. It had very little to do with her bending abilities. (yes she would have to be a powerful bender to metalbend, but just realizing HOW is the biggest step in my opinion) 2.) There were others who fought the Dai Li, not just Toph. (Appa, Sokka, Jet, Katara,etc.) 3.) fighting an earthbender and fighting a different bender (Air/water/fire) are completly different topics I think. The fighting styles used by each bender is different. Toph can easily handle earthbenders because she knows where to attack (when fighting "The Boulder" she "saw" his foot come up into the air leaving the other one weak. She struck that foot. My personal opinion is that Toph and Katara are about the same. I don't think that opinion is going to change for me, nor is your opinion of Katara
    No, I'm not really... Did you not read what I said? It doesn't matter why or how Toph created Metalbending, her blindness IS her bending ability... I do think if she had been born and used to Earthbending ANOTHER way, she would still have had the knowledge to create the art, but the point is, in reality, she used her quick thinking and experience. Her blindness is her Earthbending, if we seperated her blindness from her bending, we would be doing the same thing for Badgermoles, who are the original creators of Earthbending. I fail to see how I'm putting Toph on a "pedistal". And none of the people you mentioned have owned the Dai Li in battle the way Toph has, they have thought them, but in no way, shape or form have they come close to beating the Dai Li the way Toph did...
    Edited on 12/14/2008 11:00pm
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  • Avatar of panthean

    panthean

    [46]Dec 15, 2008
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    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:
    panthean wrote:
    libraman_92 wrote:
    There seems to be a misunderstanding that I was sure was about to happen. Alot of people believe that if you are a fully-trained Bloodbender, you can bend without the Full Moon to boost your strength. This is preposterous indeed. That's like saying that a fully-trained Firebender could bend Sozin's Comet style without Sozin's Comet. To bend someone's insides takes alot of power; that kind of power is only accessible to a Waterbender during the full moon.

    At any rate, in order to Bloodbend, it should be the night; when in the show has ANY of the bloodbenders manipulated its power during the day?


    the southern raiders...
    There was a Full Moon there... This has already been explained, unless you mean something else.


    oh wow... forgot...

    but still, why should there be limit to how powerful a bender can become...

    hey, why not have a bender of unreal power be able to do massive fire-bending during solar eclipse, or waterbender do blood-bending in lunar eclipse... sure the main characters might have limited power for the sake of keeping the series simple... but if they do continue the series, they need to have some benders become god-like in skill... I want to see a battle b/w 2 of them... Like bending crossover with matrix skills... I'm going to have a super-powerful bender in my fanfic... I drew an awesome picture of this dude who summoned up a giant flaming monsterous thing during a full solar eclipse... ULTIMATE POWER!!!
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  • Avatar of DramaticTV

    DramaticTV

    [47]Dec 16, 2008
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    Best Dai Lee Ownage: Appa
    Episode: Lake Laogai
    When does it happen: When everyone's surrounded at the end of the episode

    I don't think ANYONE took the Dai Lee out that fast
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    _Flutterlight_

    [48]Dec 16, 2008
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    You guys are over analyzing this. The fact is, Toph's style of fighting wouldn't work against a top-notch fire bender like Azula. She's undebatably the best earth bender, but she's gotten NAILED by every fire, air and water attack that's been thrown at her.

    Look at the Western Air Temple, when Zuko sent that small fire blast at her, (which would have been pretty easy to jump over or block by anybody else), she gets burned. And why? Because after she blocked it, she took a step back, right into the flames.

    In the Runaway, she just stood there while Katara doused her with a huge wave. She got knocked off the fighting platform by Aang in the Blind Bandit.
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    Flashheat

    [49]Dec 18, 2008
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    In the Blind Bandit you can't really blame her. I highly doubt she was ready to fight an airbender.
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    _Flutterlight_

    [50]Dec 18, 2008
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    True, but I can't see fighting one been that easy for Toph. Remember how confused she was when she was fighting Aang? All they'd have to do is jump into the air and then send a huge blast at her. She wouldn't be able to see that coming and get nailed.
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    ranger8060

    [51]Dec 20, 2008
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    DramaticTV wrote:
    (she did NOT blood bend during the episode Southern Raiders)

    yeah she did. what do you call her controlling someone else during a full moon using some of the same hand motions as hama and making the dude go down on the floor?

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    libraman_92

    [52]Dec 21, 2008
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    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:

    I don't want to hear any "What if Toph wasn't blind?" comments... The point is, she IS blind, never mind what she would be like if she wasn't... If we took Toph's blindness away, one could argue that we may as well change the whole entire character of Toph, because her blindness is almost a representation of who she is, and why she is such a popular and creative character. That would be like me saying things along the line of; "Why don't we take Azula's Blue Fire away?"... It doesn't matter what Toph used to create Metalbending, the point is, she DID create Metalbending, using her natural talent and intelligence. Now, I'm not discounting Katara, she is the best Waterbender in the world, but in no way, shape or from does she equal Toph's level... Rival's it maybe, but that is as far as I will go... And I would like to point out, Toph can literally HEAR THINGS IN THE AIR, so Azula flying, (with Blue Fire as her jet propulsion) would prove not a very intelligent decision made by Azula. In "The Blind Bandit", Toph quite clearly hears an agile, acrobatic, athletically gifted Earthbending man about to sneak up on her with and Air-based attack. He was as silent as a fly, and he STILL got his ass kicked... Azula's Blue Fire wouldn't just give off more noise than anything, but it would also give off heat, so Toph would be able to sense Azula quite well if that were the case... I don't think me, nor Libraman are over exaggerating Toph's abilities at all... Everything we've said about her is true.

    1). Toph is the CREATOR of METALbending, the special art for Earthbending, and what God-like characters like MAGNETO would bend if they were in the Avatar universe.

    2). Toph has defeated the Dai Li, descendants of men who were trained by the most famous Earth Avatar, and by far one of the most cold Avatar's there has ever been, KYOSHI (this is quite an underrated accomplishment in my opinion).

    3). Toph has regularly owned Earthbenders three/four times her age (with absolute accuracy).

    4). Toph is arguably the greatest Earthbender in the world, and proved to be a quick learner when she received teachings from the Badgermoles, of course the original Earthbenders.

    5). All this, and she's a 12 year old blind girl, who looks like nothing more than a harmless little doll. Toph may be a cute girl, but far from a doll, is this master...

    Toph would not be able to "see" Azula, if Azula was Fire-flying, but she would sure as hell be able to HEAR her... Toph wasn't used to Air-based attacks when Aang blasted her in "The Blind Bandit", she will never make that mistake again, and I'm sure she learned from her past na??ve choices towards Air-based attacks... Toph clearly over came this "Air-weakness" problem... Toph can sense things in the Air, this girl has exceptional hearing, and Azula's jet-like Blue Fire ROCKET would make more noise than quite possibly anything else that Toph has ever had to detect in the Air before... I think it is quite weak that you are basing this battle on one move that Azula might be able to pull, if she gets lucky enough...

    Azula's signature Blue Fire is indeed more concussive and forceful than the usual yellow, red and orange Fire we see. The reason both Azula and Zuko's Fire in "Sozin's Comet" was so equal, was because of the fact that Azula didn't have the mental sanity to back her's up, while Zuko had previously received a passport to the teachings of the true meaning of Firebending. I think that Toph being able to block her Fire is a decent accomplishment.


    I would like to build on this using the widely-famed idea that, "Azula's gotten the ability to fly. This makes Toph highly unable to withstand Azula. Katara would win because she could see her flying."

    My speculation over this statement is, "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?" Let me use the most solid proof ANYONE can use when it comes to this matter: the plot itself. May I refer to 206, during the Blind Bandit. Toph senses every movement of everyone on the battlefield. In order for Azula to fly, it would be fundamental for her to jet off in fire; a task Toph would be able to sense. Let me move on to my second best proof. In 208, Azula throws fire at the Gaang; but Toph still manages to shield the Gaang perfectly, despite them being on two different grounds and more importantly the blow being shot through the air. How does Toph manage to do any of that? Because she owns.
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    _Flutterlight_

    [53]Dec 21, 2008
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    libraman_92 wrote:
    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:

    I don't want to hear any "What if Toph wasn't blind?" comments... The point is, she IS blind, never mind what she would be like if she wasn't... If we took Toph's blindness away, one could argue that we may as well change the whole entire character of Toph, because her blindness is almost a representation of who she is, and why she is such a popular and creative character. That would be like me saying things along the line of; "Why don't we take Azula's Blue Fire away?"... It doesn't matter what Toph used to create Metalbending, the point is, she DID create Metalbending, using her natural talent and intelligence. Now, I'm not discounting Katara, she is the best Waterbender in the world, but in no way, shape or from does she equal Toph's level... Rival's it maybe, but that is as far as I will go... And I would like to point out, Toph can literally HEAR THINGS IN THE AIR, so Azula flying, (with Blue Fire as her jet propulsion) would prove not a very intelligent decision made by Azula. In "The Blind Bandit", Toph quite clearly hears an agile, acrobatic, athletically gifted Earthbending man about to sneak up on her with and Air-based attack. He was as silent as a fly, and he STILL got his ass kicked... Azula's Blue Fire wouldn't just give off more noise than anything, but it would also give off heat, so Toph would be able to sense Azula quite well if that were the case... I don't think me, nor Libraman are over exaggerating Toph's abilities at all... Everything we've said about her is true.

    1). Toph is the CREATOR of METALbending, the special art for Earthbending, and what God-like characters like MAGNETO would bend if they were in the Avatar universe.

    2). Toph has defeated the Dai Li, descendants of men who were trained by the most famous Earth Avatar, and by far one of the most cold Avatar's there has ever been, KYOSHI (this is quite an underrated accomplishment in my opinion).

    3). Toph has regularly owned Earthbenders three/four times her age (with absolute accuracy).

    4). Toph is arguably the greatest Earthbender in the world, and proved to be a quick learner when she received teachings from the Badgermoles, of course the original Earthbenders.

    5). All this, and she's a 12 year old blind girl, who looks like nothing more than a harmless little doll. Toph may be a cute girl, but far from a doll, is this master...

    Toph would not be able to "see" Azula, if Azula was Fire-flying, but she would sure as hell be able to HEAR her... Toph wasn't used to Air-based attacks when Aang blasted her in "The Blind Bandit", she will never make that mistake again, and I'm sure she learned from her past na??ve choices towards Air-based attacks... Toph clearly over came this "Air-weakness" problem... Toph can sense things in the Air, this girl has exceptional hearing, and Azula's jet-like Blue Fire ROCKET would make more noise than quite possibly anything else that Toph has ever had to detect in the Air before... I think it is quite weak that you are basing this battle on one move that Azula might be able to pull, if she gets lucky enough...

    Azula's signature Blue Fire is indeed more concussive and forceful than the usual yellow, red and orange Fire we see. The reason both Azula and Zuko's Fire in "Sozin's Comet" was so equal, was because of the fact that Azula didn't have the mental sanity to back her's up, while Zuko had previously received a passport to the teachings of the true meaning of Firebending. I think that Toph being able to block her Fire is a decent accomplishment.


    I would like to build on this using the widely-famed idea that, "Azula's gotten the ability to fly. This makes Toph highly unable to withstand Azula. Katara would win because she could see her flying."

    My speculation over this statement is, "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?" Let me use the most solid proof ANYONE can use when it comes to this matter: the plot itself. May I refer to 206, during the Blind Bandit. Toph senses every movement of everyone on the battlefield. In order for Azula to fly, it would be fundamental for her to jet off in fire; a task Toph would be able to sense. Let me move on to my second best proof. In 208, Azula throws fire at the Gaang; but Toph still manages to shield the Gaang perfectly, despite them being on two different grounds and more importantly the blow being shot through the air. How does Toph manage to do any of that? Because she owns.


    Inconclusive proof.

    In 206, Toph sensed everybody on the battlefield because they were all standing on the ground. She was completely caught off guard when Aang was her opponent because he spent so much time in the air when he jumped.

    And in 208, Toph never "shields" the Gaang. She throws up an earth barier to try and keep Ozai's angels from getting any closer, which Azula then blasts to bits.

    Keep in mind, every time Toph's fought an expert non-earthbender, she's just gotten nailed by even their simplist attacks.
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    ThisCrazyGuy

    [54]Jan 3, 2009
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    You guys are over analyzing this. The fact is, Toph's style of fighting wouldn't work against a top-notch fire bender like Azula. She's undebatably the best earth bender, but she's gotten NAILED by every fire, air and water attack that's been thrown at her.

    Look at the Western Air Temple, when Zuko sent that small fire blast at her, (which would have been pretty easy to jump over or block by anybody else), she gets burned. And why? Because after she blocked it, she took a step back, right into the flames.

    In the Runaway, she just stood there while Katara doused her with a huge wave. She got knocked off the fighting platform by Aang in the Blind Bandit.
    Um, her style WOULD work against Azula, Toph's style works against almost ANY BENDER... Gotten nailed by every attack that has been throw at her, that isn't Earth? Not quite... And all the times that happened, Toph wasn't prepared for battle... She was blind-sided, almost all those different times... If Toph knew whom she was facing, and was in a stand off, about to start a battle, I guarantee she wouldn't get "nailed" by the opposition... I dare say that Toph is among the top five, for greatest benders of any element in the Avatar universe, excluding the Avatar. Toph was BLIND-SIDED... She was about to make a peace offering with Zuko while he was sleeping, and she was basically within arm's reach, do you really think she had time to react properly? Let's be fair...
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    ThisCrazyGuy

    [55]Jan 3, 2009
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    True, but I can't see fighting one been that easy for Toph. Remember how confused she was when she was fighting Aang? All they'd have to do is jump into the air and then send a huge blast at her. She wouldn't be able to see that coming and get nailed.
    She had never even SEEN an Airbender before in her life, and was used to constantly battling people, who's bodies were firmly rooted to the ground, plus, those can be considered her rookie days... She had never battled that style before, and was utterly confused, and she should have been... Only God knows what would happen if she fought an Airbender NOW (not that she can, as they are literally all extinct, except for Aang, who is now the fully realised Avatar)... And besides, this is Toph vs. Azula, not Toph vs. Anyone who might be able to beat her...
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    ThisCrazyGuy

    [56]Jan 3, 2009
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    libraman_92 wrote:
    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:

    I don't want to hear any "What if Toph wasn't blind?" comments... The point is, she IS blind, never mind what she would be like if she wasn't... If we took Toph's blindness away, one could argue that we may as well change the whole entire character of Toph, because her blindness is almost a representation of who she is, and why she is such a popular and creative character. That would be like me saying things along the line of; "Why don't we take Azula's Blue Fire away?"... It doesn't matter what Toph used to create Metalbending, the point is, she DID create Metalbending, using her natural talent and intelligence. Now, I'm not discounting Katara, she is the best Waterbender in the world, but in no way, shape or from does she equal Toph's level... Rival's it maybe, but that is as far as I will go... And I would like to point out, Toph can literally HEAR THINGS IN THE AIR, so Azula flying, (with Blue Fire as her jet propulsion) would prove not a very intelligent decision made by Azula. In "The Blind Bandit", Toph quite clearly hears an agile, acrobatic, athletically gifted Earthbending man about to sneak up on her with and Air-based attack. He was as silent as a fly, and he STILL got his ass kicked... Azula's Blue Fire wouldn't just give off more noise than anything, but it would also give off heat, so Toph would be able to sense Azula quite well if that were the case... I don't think me, nor Libraman are over exaggerating Toph's abilities at all... Everything we've said about her is true.

    1). Toph is the CREATOR of METALbending, the special art for Earthbending, and what God-like characters like MAGNETO would bend if they were in the Avatar universe.

    2). Toph has defeated the Dai Li, descendants of men who were trained by the most famous Earth Avatar, and by far one of the most cold Avatar's there has ever been, KYOSHI (this is quite an underrated accomplishment in my opinion).

    3). Toph has regularly owned Earthbenders three/four times her age (with absolute accuracy).

    4). Toph is arguably the greatest Earthbender in the world, and proved to be a quick learner when she received teachings from the Badgermoles, of course the original Earthbenders.

    5). All this, and she's a 12 year old blind girl, who looks like nothing more than a harmless little doll. Toph may be a cute girl, but far from a doll, is this master...

    Toph would not be able to "see" Azula, if Azula was Fire-flying, but she would sure as hell be able to HEAR her... Toph wasn't used to Air-based attacks when Aang blasted her in "The Blind Bandit", she will never make that mistake again, and I'm sure she learned from her past na??ve choices towards Air-based attacks... Toph clearly over came this "Air-weakness" problem... Toph can sense things in the Air, this girl has exceptional hearing, and Azula's jet-like Blue Fire ROCKET would make more noise than quite possibly anything else that Toph has ever had to detect in the Air before... I think it is quite weak that you are basing this battle on one move that Azula might be able to pull, if she gets lucky enough...

    Azula's signature Blue Fire is indeed more concussive and forceful than the usual yellow, red and orange Fire we see. The reason both Azula and Zuko's Fire in "Sozin's Comet" was so equal, was because of the fact that Azula didn't have the mental sanity to back her's up, while Zuko had previously received a passport to the teachings of the true meaning of Firebending. I think that Toph being able to block her Fire is a decent accomplishment.


    I would like to build on this using the widely-famed idea that, "Azula's gotten the ability to fly. This makes Toph highly unable to withstand Azula. Katara would win because she could see her flying."

    My speculation over this statement is, "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?" Let me use the most solid proof ANYONE can use when it comes to this matter: the plot itself. May I refer to 206, during the Blind Bandit. Toph senses every movement of everyone on the battlefield. In order for Azula to fly, it would be fundamental for her to jet off in fire; a task Toph would be able to sense. Let me move on to my second best proof. In 208, Azula throws fire at the Gaang; but Toph still manages to shield the Gaang perfectly, despite them being on two different grounds and more importantly the blow being shot through the air. How does Toph manage to do any of that? Because she owns.


    Inconclusive proof.

    In 206, Toph sensed everybody on the battlefield because they were all standing on the ground. She was completely caught off guard when Aang was her opponent because he spent so much time in the air when he jumped.

    And in 208, Toph never "shields" the Gaang. She throws up an earth barier to try and keep Ozai's angels from getting any closer, which Azula then blasts to bits.

    Keep in mind, every time Toph's fought an expert non-earthbender, she's just gotten nailed by even their simplist attacks.
    Again, that style was Toph's biggest stranger for an opponent that she has EVER HAD... And that was when she wasn't HALF as good as she is now... Same thing, she created a basic shield of Earth, even if it was utterly destroyed, it was still technically a shield to buy the Gaang some time...

    Toph hasn't really fought much non-Earthbenders though, and although she now knows all different bending styles, we still never saw her fight benders who weren't Earthbenders, that much... You can't base this entire battle on that... You must admit that even if YOU don't think Toph would win, she would give Azula the fight of a lifetime...
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  • Avatar of _Flutterlight_

    _Flutterlight_

    [57]Jan 4, 2009
    • member since: 08/29/08
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 1,393
    KATARA gave Azula the fight of a life time.

    When Katara and Toph got into that fight during The Runaway, Katara sent a huge wave of water at Toph, and she just stood there and got splashed. What if instead of a wave, Katara had used the attack she did against the guy who killed her mom? Toph would have died, because she couldn't see it.

    In the Southern Air Temple, when Zuko accidentally burned Toph's feet, Toph would have been fine if she hadn't taken that step backwards after she threw up the stone pillar to block his attack. But she coudln't tell that the fire had moved, diffracting around the pillar she had made. Toph clearly thought that the Fire had either stopped, or continued to move in a straight line. So she took a step backwards, right into the fire blast.

    Yes, Toph is the best earth bender in the Avatar world, and with some practice she'd totally beat Azula into the ground. But when Zuko had to decide who should help him fight Azula, Toph was extreamly weak when it came to sensing airbound projectiles that do not move in straight lines. Katara was the obvious choice.
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  • Avatar of ThisCrazyGuy

    ThisCrazyGuy

    [58]Jan 4, 2009
    • member since: 08/10/08
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 700
    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    KATARA gave Azula the fight of a life time.

    When Katara and Toph got into that fight during The Runaway, Katara sent a huge wave of water at Toph, and she just stood there and got splashed. What if instead of a wave, Katara had used the attack she did against the guy who killed her mom? Toph would have died, because she couldn't see it.

    In the Southern Air Temple, when Zuko accidentally burned Toph's feet, Toph would have been fine if she hadn't taken that step backwards after she threw up the stone pillar to block his attack. But she coudln't tell that the fire had moved, diffracting around the pillar she had made. Toph clearly thought that the Fire had either stopped, or continued to move in a straight line. So she took a step backwards, right into the fire blast.

    Yes, Toph is the best earth bender in the Avatar world, and with some practice she'd totally beat Azula into the ground. But when Zuko had to decide who should help him fight Azula, Toph was extreamly weak when it came to sensing airbound projectiles that do not move in straight lines. Katara was the obvious choice.
    Toph's senses have proved to be on and off at times. She CAN sense objects in the Air, how do you explain "The Blind Bandit"? As I said, her senses have their good AND bad moments. And Toph would have been able to block Katara's attack. She definitely would have been able to sense those Ice Daggers. There is a massive difference between a quiet wave and a group of flying ice knives, based on sound, at least for Toph.

    And Toph WAS BLIND-SIDED in the Zuko situation. An attack was the last thing in the world that she was expecting.

    Toph > Azula > Katara.
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  • Avatar of tenacon

    tenacon

    [59]Jan 4, 2009
    • member since: 07/23/08
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 949
    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:
    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    KATARA gave Azula the fight of a life time.

    When Katara and Toph got into that fight during The Runaway, Katara sent a huge wave of water at Toph, and she just stood there and got splashed. What if instead of a wave, Katara had used the attack she did against the guy who killed her mom? Toph would have died, because she couldn't see it.

    In the Southern Air Temple, when Zuko accidentally burned Toph's feet, Toph would have been fine if she hadn't taken that step backwards after she threw up the stone pillar to block his attack. But she coudln't tell that the fire had moved, diffracting around the pillar she had made. Toph clearly thought that the Fire had either stopped, or continued to move in a straight line. So she took a step backwards, right into the fire blast.

    Yes, Toph is the best earth bender in the Avatar world, and with some practice she'd totally beat Azula into the ground. But when Zuko had to decide who should help him fight Azula, Toph was extreamly weak when it came to sensing airbound projectiles that do not move in straight lines. Katara was the obvious choice.
    Toph's senses have proved to be on and off at times. She CAN sense objects in the Air, how do you explain "The Blind Bandit"? As I said, her senses have their good AND bad moments. And Toph would have been able to block Katara's attack. She definitely would have been able to sense those Ice Daggers. There is a massive difference between a quiet wave and a group of flying ice knives, based on sound, at least for Toph.

    And Toph WAS BLIND-SIDED in the Zuko situation. An attack was the last thing in the world that she was expecting.

    Toph > Azula > Katara.
    Toph needs to hear or feel to sense an object. Aang is very stealthy. That is how Toph got PWNED.
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  • Avatar of ThisCrazyGuy

    ThisCrazyGuy

    [60]Jan 4, 2009
    • member since: 08/10/08
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 700
    tenacon wrote:
    ThisCrazyGuy wrote:
    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    KATARA gave Azula the fight of a life time.

    When Katara and Toph got into that fight during The Runaway, Katara sent a huge wave of water at Toph, and she just stood there and got splashed. What if instead of a wave, Katara had used the attack she did against the guy who killed her mom? Toph would have died, because she couldn't see it.

    In the Southern Air Temple, when Zuko accidentally burned Toph's feet, Toph would have been fine if she hadn't taken that step backwards after she threw up the stone pillar to block his attack. But she coudln't tell that the fire had moved, diffracting around the pillar she had made. Toph clearly thought that the Fire had either stopped, or continued to move in a straight line. So she took a step backwards, right into the fire blast.

    Yes, Toph is the best earth bender in the Avatar world, and with some practice she'd totally beat Azula into the ground. But when Zuko had to decide who should help him fight Azula, Toph was extreamly weak when it came to sensing airbound projectiles that do not move in straight lines. Katara was the obvious choice.
    Toph's senses have proved to be on and off at times. She CAN sense objects in the Air, how do you explain "The Blind Bandit"? As I said, her senses have their good AND bad moments. And Toph would have been able to block Katara's attack. She definitely would have been able to sense those Ice Daggers. There is a massive difference between a quiet wave and a group of flying ice knives, based on sound, at least for Toph.

    And Toph WAS BLIND-SIDED in the Zuko situation. An attack was the last thing in the world that she was expecting.

    Toph > Azula > Katara.
    Toph needs to hear or feel to sense an object. Aang is very stealthy. That is how Toph got PWNED.
    That can be debated (it really can), and we are talking about Toph vs. Azula, not Toph vs. The Avatar.
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