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OK, first of all... we do not know that the worst thing that could've happened was a scar. The worst thing that could've happened is DEATH. We have only seen one Agni Kai, the one between Zhao and Zuko. We do not know what the proper "outcome" was supposed to be because Zuko redirected his final blow and fireballed the ground instead of Zhao's face. Perhaps the proper ending is to finish off your opponent. Can you really call Zuko a coward for refusing to fight if he'd be forced to kill his own father... or be killed?

Even if the ending is just to scar your opponent, I think Zuko would rather have taken a scar willingly (which he did) rather than give one to his father.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote:

And even Iroh said in Avatar State that his Father cares for Zuko and I agree with that.

Yeah... and Iroh called that guy who insulted him and made him dance for a gold piece "such a kind man."

ISpeakTheTruth wrote:

Let???s take a look at Ozai sending Azula to capture Iroh and Zuko. The key word here is Capture since Iroh is a traitor and Zuko is an embarrassment to his nation if he hated them and if he didn???t care for them he would have sent Azula to kill them but he sent her to catch them and bring them back.

1) Azula tried to kill Zuko with a lightning blast. Yeah, I know... that's because he attacked her first. Still, I doubt Azula would have made the attempt if she thought it would upset her father.

2) Didn't Azula say something to her soldiers about how they might have mixed feelings about attacking members of the royal family? Didn't she threaten them if they dared hesitate? This tells me that Ozai's orders were probably more like "capture Iroh and Zuko... and kill them if they resist."

Zuko said he wasn't afraid to fight the general he had insulted. He expected to fight that general. Why wasn't he told that he would have to fight his father until the very last minute? Was he really supposed to fight his father for his "offence" or did Ozai tweak the rules to made himself Zuko's opponent, instead of the old general?

In the episode Boy in the Iceberg Iroh stated that Sozen, Azulon, and Ozai all tried to find the avatar that means they did believe he was out there to be found. And I know it seems rather evil to take Iroh's place and it was but since Iroh had no line who would take his place then? There would be a civil war to determine who would follow him.

OK, first of all... we do not know that the worst thing that could've happened was a scar. The worst thing that could've happened is DEATH. We have only seen one Agni Kai, the one between Zhao and Zuko. We do not know what the proper "outcome" was supposed to be because Zuko redirected his final blow and fireballed the ground instead of Zhao's face. Perhaps the proper ending is to finish off your opponent. Can you really call Zuko a coward for refusing to fight if he'd be forced to kill his own father... or be killed? Even if the ending is just to scar your opponent, I think Zuko would rather have taken a scar willingly (which he did) rather than give one to his father.

[QUOTE\"ISpeakTheTruth"]??It has been stated that the outcome of an Agni Kai is determined by the victor. And I don't think anyone here thinks Zuko could have beaten Ozai. And since Ozai was a far superior bender and he wouldn't let Zuko die if he didn't want to kill him...which he didn't. Even though his son showed utter cowardice he still spared his life if he was evil he wouldn't have.

?? Azula ditched a royal retinue of soldiers for two sidkicks. Iroh defeated practically all of her crew singlehandedly. If her plan is for the three of them to take her brother and uncle back to the Fire Nation by force, it hardly seems feasible. Killing them seems a much more logical plan, especially given Mai's assassin-like skills and MO. As??I recall, the word "capture" never was used, just "I have a task for you."

Ozai not evil? His own father, another meglomaniac trying to take over the world, found his attitude despicable! As for the Agni Kai, like you said, Zuko was just a fourteen-year-old boy who had no business being in the meeting in the first place; what threat did his outburst pose? Ozai was apparently just as bold towards his own father, and his then-intentions??far less noble.

IMO, there was nothing political about the Agni Kai or the scarring- it was nothing more or less than abuse, retaliation for challenging his power, breaking his son's spirit, establishing his control, a branding as if to say, "Wherever you go, whatever happens, I own you and I always will." His son's life and honor belong to him now- like any tyrant/abuser, he enjoys that power. Why didn't he kill him, you ask? Where the fun be in that?

Iroh said in The Storm that Zuko was the one who misunderstood the rules. Iroh already knew that since the offence happened in Ozai's War Room that he would have to face Ozai.

---------------------------------??

Now let???s move right after the Agni Kai. Now if Zuko had fought his father the worst thing that would happen to him have been a scar, but he would have never been banished and if anything Ozai may have respected him more for fighting for what he believed in. But no Zuko was a coward in that fight and Ozai had to punish him for that. Now we all know that Ozai had Azula still and that she is a far better fighter and bender than Zuko is and as many people have stated Ozai???s ???Favorite??? since he had Azula he could have killed Zuko but he didn???t. He allowed him to live and not only that but gave him an opportunity to return home. Given catching the Avatar isn???t the simplest task but at least he gave him a chance. And even Iroh said in Avatar State that his Father cares for Zuko and I agree with that.??

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You say he gave him a chance, I say he sent him on a wild goose chase. When Zuko began his quest, no one had seen the Avatar for nearly a 100 years. No one expected Zuko to find him. What happened as soon as the Avatar did show up? The Firelord promoted Zhao and gave him every available resource to help him hunt down the Avatar. Why would he do that if he expected Zuko to have any success? Zuko never got any help from the Firenation in his hunt for the Avatar.

Like I said in the post above Sozzen, Azulon and Ozai looked over the entire world to find the avatar...So they didn't think it was a wild goose chase. And it's pure speculation as to why Zhao was promoted when he did...you forget he was promoted during Zuko's excile from captain to Commander? And gee let's think why wouldn't the FN help Zuko find the avatar hmm....Oh yeah Because he was banished and disowned untill he captored the Avatar! he has to be the one to capture the avatar in order to return home. If the FN catches him then how would Zuko be able to come home?

-----------------------------??

Now to the season 1 finale when Ozai said ???Iroh is a traitor and your brother Zuko is a failure.??? ???Is he wrong? Iroh is a traitor because he attacked his superior officer (Zhao) and possibly cost the FN its victory at the North Pole. I???m not saying Zhao was right because he wasn???t but when you attack your superior that makes you a traitor. Now to Zuko, He has had three years to capture the Avatar and he has failed to do that even when given numerous chances in doing so, so Zuko is indeed a failure. Let???s take a look at Ozai sending Azula to capture Iroh and Zuko. The key word here is Capture since Iroh is a traitor and Zuko is an embarrassment to his nation if he hated them and if he didn???t care for them he would have sent Azula to kill them but he sent her to catch them and bring them back. That???s the core of my argument and I???d like to say one last thing. Ozai loves his family. From his wife, Azula, and yes even his brother and Son he???s just a hard man who is in the middle of a war. Any thoughts???

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Iroh didn't cost the Firenation the north pole. Aang and the ocean spirit did. Ozai stole the throne from Iroh. As long as Iroh is at alive and atlarge, Ozai cannot be sure that Iroh won't try to take the throne back. Iroh is a war hero of the Firenation and may get a large faction of the army to support him. I believe that is why Ozai wanted to discredit him and denounce him as a traitor. He reminds me of MacBeth, sitting uneasily on his ill-gained, blood-soaked throne and mistrusting anyone and everyone around him. I think we haven't been shown yet, the definitive reason for why Ozai hates Zuko, we've only been given tantalizing hints.

There is a problem with your theory on Iroh trying to overthrow Ozai...He had about Years to overthrow Ozai when he was still in the FN before Zuko was banished did you forget that Iroh was there in the FN after Ba Sing Sa all the way up until Zuko's banishment. He had no intention to overthrow Ozai. The reason why Ozai said Iroh is a traitor is because he is. He attacked his superior officer and that makes one a traitor.

Edited on 05/20/2006 9:37pm

Let???s take a look at Ozai sending Azula to capture Iroh and Zuko. The key word here is Capture since Iroh is a traitor and Zuko is an embarrassment to his nation if he hated them and if he didn???t care for them he would have sent Azula to kill them but he sent her to catch them and bring them back.

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?? Azula ditched a royal retinue of soldiers for two sidkicks. Iroh defeated practically all of her crew singlehandedly. If her plan is for the three of them to take her brother and uncle back to the Fire Nation by force, it hardly seems feasible. Killing them seems a much more logical plan, especially given Mai's assassin-like skills and MO. As??I recall, the word "capture" never was used, just "I have a task for you."

Like Azula told Zuko her father wants to lock them away not kill them...Azula could use Mo's pressure points to disable both Iroh and Zuko...Ever think of that?

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Ozai not evil? His own father, another meglomaniac trying to take over the world, found his attitude despicable! As for the Agni Kai, like you said, Zuko was just a fourteen-year-old boy who had no business being in the meeting in the first place; what threat did his outburst pose? Ozai was apparently just as bold towards his own father, and his then-intentions??far less noble.

There was no threat from Zuko's outburst. I never said there was, the outburst was an utter act of disrespect and dishonor to both the general and Ozai. And the fact that he was Ozai's son that dishonored him infornt of the general's only made it worse. Iroh even said that Zuko had no right to talk out of turn.

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IMO, there was nothing political about the Agni Kai or the scarring- it was nothing more or less than abuse, retaliation for challenging his power, breaking his son's spirit, establishing his control, a branding as if to say, "Wherever you go, whatever happens, I own you and I always will." His son's life and honor belong to him now- like any tyrant/abuser, he enjoys that power. Why didn't he kill him, you ask? Where the fun be in that?

I'm sorry when did it ever say Ozai liked buring Zuko? I don't realy remember that on the show. If he wanted to scare Zuko just for fun why would he give him two chances to stand and fight him? He wanted Zuko to fight him so he wouldn't have to take the punishment any farther than??just the duel.????And the Agni Kai is part of their political system. Iroh said that disrespect in the war room could only be punishable by one means the Agni kai. And what would you have Ozai do? Zuko has disrespect him and his generals and now he is crying infornt of the whole nation after just moments ago saying he wasn't affraid to fight?

If Ozai didn't punish Zuko he himself would be seen as weak by his people and who knows what would have happened.

I believe it's a matter of discipline. The elements all seem to have their own thought processes. Not only is the avatar cycle earth, fire, air, water, earth, but that's the way the avatars need to learn the elements, too. So a firebender avatar, like Roku, would need to learn airbending next, and waterbending afterwards, whereas Aang needed to learn waterbending next, and earthbending afterwards. I guess it's a matter of tradition and discipline.

I believe it's a matter of discipline. The elements all seem to have their own thought processes. Not only is the avatar cycle earth, fire, air, water, earth, but that's the way the avatars need to learn the elements, too. So a firebender avatar, like Roku, would need to learn airbending next, and waterbending afterwards, whereas Aang needed to learn waterbending next, and earthbending afterwards. I guess it's a matter of tradition and discipline.

MCMLXVI wrote:

I believe it's a matter of discipline. The elements all seem to have their own thought processes. Not only is the avatar cycle earth, fire, air, water, earth, but that's the way the avatars need to learn the elements, too. So a firebender avatar, like Roku, would need to learn airbending next, and waterbending afterwards, whereas Aang needed to learn waterbending next, and earthbending afterwards. I guess it's a matter of tradition and discipline.

fngrsfknfshrpnr wrote:

not to mention the return of sozens comet which will allow the FN incrdible power

I believe that's besides-the-point. Aang could go atop the highest mountain and "earthbend" the comet with the assistance of the avatar state so that it changes its path. Is it really common knowledge that the comet is returning by the end of summer? Have they been tracking the comet as it races through the heavens? And if it weren't a matter of discipline, why would Jeong Jeong object strongly to Aang learning firebending from him? After all, since Aang is already a master of airbending, he should already know basic things like how to get in position (focus physically) and how to concentrate (focus mentally).

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