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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Katara should have killed her mother's murderer

  • Avatar of assailant_blade

    assailant_blade

    [61]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 07/18/08
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    i don't think he should be punished for murder. yes he is a murderer but he was doing his duty to the fire nation by wiping out what he thought was the last waterbender in the southern water tribe. it's not like he just went down there and killed her for no reason. it's understandable why katara personally was upset, but he shouldn't have been killed
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  • Avatar of suss2it

    suss2it

    [62]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 02/02/08
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    Teranef wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    ChaosBladewing wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    pharmmajor wrote:

    suss2it wrote:
    And besides what exactly positive things would his death cause?

    Justice would be served for the crimes he committed in the past. Plus, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it.

    I have a question for all who may read this. When punishment neither deters further crimes or protects the innocent from them, nor does it teach the criminal or anyone else not to commit, then what is the difference between justice and revenge?

    And what if the water tribe legal system had done slowly and methodically, after trial, imprisonment and court appeals, what Katara wanted to do when she began her journey, would that've been justice when Katara doing the same thing on her own is just considered vengeance? If so, if you believe Katara doing it is "not justice, just vengeance", how would the law doing it be any more then slow, methodical, state sponsored vengeance? The way people talk about this issue gives me a strange impression;

    Killing murderers; when the individual does it, it's vigilante vengeance, when the state does it then it's fair justice

    That said, I too would've had a good laugh if Katara had killed him.

    Umm...I certainly never said that it was just if the state does it. Although for one thing the state has numerous appeals so they are not killing an innocent man, opportunities vigilante's dont offer. That being said, you did bring up an interesting point. What is the use of the death penalty if it doesnt deter or protect? Thats a discussion for another time and place though...
    I know you never said it was justice if the state does it, and I never claimed you did. It was more a hypothetical "IF anyone reading this believes this, then what seperates justice & revenge? And if that's not what you believe, then ignore my question". It's just that I see people saying in, in many places and discussions of many things, "It wouldn't be justice, it'd just be vengeance." or in the case of a Twilight Zone episode about an ex-nazi getting tormented, "This isn't revenge, this is justice!" and I keep on having this re-occuring question I needed to get off my chest; What really separates the two?
    Did you read my post?
    Ooops, I missed it. I read it now, though.

    Excuse me if I missed the point but it seemed to paint the picture

    "When one person wants to kill a killer to make themselves feel better, it's revenge, but when one thousand people want to kill a killer to make themselves feel better, it's justice."

    I see where you get that from, how about this:
    DrAvatar wrote:

    Part of me does wish he paid a heftier price but I would just not be happy with Katara taking revenge. Katara's first and foremost a motherly figure in the series. Having her viciously kill somebody for revenge just seems to far out of character.

    I also believe if she had killed him it would have been straight up revenge. Killing the one that hurt you is revenge and nothing less. Justice is having a third party examine the situation, decide the fate of the killer, and have someone else execute the punishment chosen.

    I was just about to respond to that with a similar little one or two liner. Yes a third party decides the fate of the killer, but decides on death for what strikes me as similar motives as the vigilante. That definition of Justice covers V from the movie V for Vendetta killing people in the name of Valerie (the girl who was kept in the prison cell next to his), or really any other vigilante killing in the name of other people rather then himself. The court and prison system also kills in the name of other people, but unlike a vigilante it is a branch of the government.

    I'm not implying that all justice is revenge or vice versa, but the line between the two seems quite vague and blurry to me.

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But I do not think that the justice system should allow death, life in prison is much worse anyway.
    I was hoping you'd debate with me further. Anyway, agreed with you on that point except in cases of the protection of others (for example, imprisoned gang leaders can send messages and orders to kill to their gang on the streets).
    Must say that you are fun to debate with.

    And I'll leave you with this, how would Katara's mother think of her after she killed the pathetic man? What about Hakoda?
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  • Avatar of picaboomman

    picaboomman

    [63]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 02/04/08
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    why are we continueing. there is an official thread for this type of thing
    but yeah she should have killed him
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  • Avatar of -TheSecondSign-

    -TheSecondSign-

    [64]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 11/03/07
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    Look, for the people talking about "compassion", and "mercy", I get it, really.

    But don't act like you are any stronger or wiser because you would bestow mercy, because that makes no sense at all.

    If everyone always showed mercy to everyone cruel or evil, evil acts would continue to prosper. Evil exists when people fail to act against it.

    I understand mercy. I like to think of myself as a guy with morality. But I have a limit, damnit. And if someone were to hurt my family, I would unleash more pain and suffering onto them than you can ever know.

    I have limits. Everyone has limits. Noone here doesn't have a limit. You think you can forgive people and be the "better man", but you have a limit. Once it's reached, I don't want to be in your way, no matter how fat or unfit you are. When a person reaches that limit, there is no stopping them.

    I am, of course, talking about real people here. I don't know about Katara. She definitely has a limit. If Aang were murdered infront of her a second time, she would probably kill whoever did it if she had the chance.

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  • Avatar of suss2it

    suss2it

    [65]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 02/02/08
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    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    Look, for the people talking about "compassion", and "mercy", I get it, really.

    But don't act like you are any stronger or wiser because you would bestow mercy, because that makes no sense at all.

    If everyone always showed mercy to everyone cruel or evil, evil acts would continue to prosper. Evil exists when people fail to act against it.

    Yes but he wasn't even evil, he was just pathetic. What evil things is he doing right now? It's not like he just came in and killed her, he was serving his country after all.
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  • Avatar of -TheSecondSign-

    -TheSecondSign-

    [66]Jul 19, 2008
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    suss2it wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    Look, for the people talking about "compassion", and "mercy", I get it, really.

    But don't act like you are any stronger or wiser because you would bestow mercy, because that makes no sense at all.

    If everyone always showed mercy to everyone cruel or evil, evil acts would continue to prosper. Evil exists when people fail to act against it.

    Yes but he wasn't even evil, he was just pathetic. What evil things is he doing right now? It's not like he just came in and killed her, he was serving his country after all.

    So a person who commits a murder, gets away with it for twenty years, and becomes a bum shouldn't be prosecuted?

    And how does serving his country make it OK?

    If he were serving his country for a VALID reason, I'd respect him, greatly. Anyone who fights or kills for a valid reason, I've got a great amount of respect for. I am joining the military after all, so that makes sense. But he was like a Nazi. I don't pay much respect to Nazi's either.

    He clearly enjoyed murdering Kaya. I wouldn't be able to forgive him if that happened to me. I would've killed him the second I saw him.

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  • Avatar of suss2it

    suss2it

    [67]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 02/02/08
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    -TheSecondSign- wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    Look, for the people talking about "compassion", and "mercy", I get it, really.

    But don't act like you are any stronger or wiser because you would bestow mercy, because that makes no sense at all.

    If everyone always showed mercy to everyone cruel or evil, evil acts would continue to prosper. Evil exists when people fail to act against it.

    Yes but he wasn't even evil, he was just pathetic. What evil things is he doing right now? It's not like he just came in and killed her, he was serving his country after all.

    So a person who commits a murder, gets away with it for twenty years, and becomes a bum shouldn't be prosecuted?

    And how does serving his country make it OK?

    If he were serving his country for a VALID reason, I'd respect him, greatly. Anyone who fights or kills for a valid reason, I've got a great amount of respect for. I am joining the military after all, so that makes sense. But he was like a Nazi. I don't pay much respect to Nazi's either.

    He clearly enjoyed murdering Kya. I wouldn't be able to forgive him if that happened to me. I would've killed him the second I saw him.

    That's the difference between you and Katara. He was serving his country by being in the army, whether he enjoyed it or not, it was still on behalf of the Fire Nation. And if we go by your logic, anyone in the army who has ever killed someone should be prosecuted.
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  • Avatar of tomtitan

    tomtitan

    [68]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 03/01/07
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    -TheSecondSign- wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    Look, for the people talking about "compassion", and "mercy", I get it, really.

    But don't act like you are any stronger or wiser because you would bestow mercy, because that makes no sense at all.

    If everyone always showed mercy to everyone cruel or evil, evil acts would continue to prosper. Evil exists when people fail to act against it.

    Yes but he wasn't even evil, he was just pathetic. What evil things is he doing right now? It's not like he just came in and killed her, he was serving his country after all.

    So a person who commits a murder, gets away with it for twenty years, and becomes a bum shouldn't be prosecuted?

    And how does serving his country make it OK?

    If he were serving his country for a VALID reason, I'd respect him, greatly. Anyone who fights or kills for a valid reason, I've got a great amount of respect for. I am joining the military after all, so that makes sense. But he was like a Nazi. I don't pay much respect to Nazi's either.

    He clearly enjoyed murdering Kaya. I wouldn't be able to forgive him if that happened to me. I would've killed him the second I saw him.

    He should be prosecuted, he should be punished for his crimes, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with taking someone's life.

    But that doesn't necessarily mean he should be killed. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. He looked pretty miserable, he was a pathetic loser, he was empty inside, and now he's had an extremely traumatic experience to boot. He should be punished for his crimes, but a) not necessarily through death and b) not when there are more important things to do.
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  • Avatar of -TheSecondSign-

    -TheSecondSign-

    [69]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 11/03/07
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    suss2it wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    Look, for the people talking about "compassion", and "mercy", I get it, really.

    But don't act like you are any stronger or wiser because you would bestow mercy, because that makes no sense at all.

    If everyone always showed mercy to everyone cruel or evil, evil acts would continue to prosper. Evil exists when people fail to act against it.

    Yes but he wasn't even evil, he was just pathetic. What evil things is he doing right now? It's not like he just came in and killed her, he was serving his country after all.

    So a person who commits a murder, gets away with it for twenty years, and becomes a bum shouldn't be prosecuted?

    And how does serving his country make it OK?

    If he were serving his country for a VALID reason, I'd respect him, greatly. Anyone who fights or kills for a valid reason, I've got a great amount of respect for. I am joining the military after all, so that makes sense. But he was like a Nazi. I don't pay much respect to Nazi's either.

    He clearly enjoyed murdering Kya. I wouldn't be able to forgive him if that happened to me. I would've killed him the second I saw him.

    That's the difference between you and Katara. He was serving his country by being in the army, whether he enjoyed it or not, it was still on behalf of the Fire Nation. And if we go by your logic, anyone in the army who has ever killed someone should be prosecuted.

    I never said that, and I don't feel like explaining myself to a stranger on the internet I've never met any longer.

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  • Avatar of assailant_blade

    assailant_blade

    [70]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 07/18/08
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    -TheSecondSign- wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    -TheSecondSign- wrote:

    Look, for the people talking about "compassion", and "mercy", I get it, really.

    But don't act like you are any stronger or wiser because you would bestow mercy, because that makes no sense at all.

    If everyone always showed mercy to everyone cruel or evil, evil acts would continue to prosper. Evil exists when people fail to act against it.

    Yes but he wasn't even evil, he was just pathetic. What evil things is he doing right now? It's not like he just came in and killed her, he was serving his country after all.

    So a person who commits a murder, gets away with it for twenty years, and becomes a bum shouldn't be prosecuted?

    And how does serving his country make it OK?

    If he were serving his country for a VALID reason, I'd respect him, greatly. Anyone who fights or kills for a valid reason, I've got a great amount of respect for. I am joining the military after all, so that makes sense. But he was like a Nazi. I don't pay much respect to Nazi's either.

    He clearly enjoyed murdering Kya. I wouldn't be able to forgive him if that happened to me. I would've killed him the second I saw him.

    That's the difference between you and Katara. He was serving his country by being in the army, whether he enjoyed it or not, it was still on behalf of the Fire Nation. And if we go by your logic, anyone in the army who has ever killed someone should be prosecuted.

    I never said that, and I don't feel like explaining myself to a stranger on the internet I've never met any longer.

    then what's the point of coming to a forum?

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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [71]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 12/02/06
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    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    ChaosBladewing wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    pharmmajor wrote:

    suss2it wrote:
    And besides what exactly positive things would his death cause?

    Justice would be served for the crimes he committed in the past. Plus, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it.

    I have a question for all who may read this. When punishment neither deters further crimes or protects the innocent from them, nor does it teach the criminal or anyone else not to commit, then what is the difference between justice and revenge?

    And what if the water tribe legal system had done slowly and methodically, after trial, imprisonment and court appeals, what Katara wanted to do when she began her journey, would that've been justice when Katara doing the same thing on her own is just considered vengeance? If so, if you believe Katara doing it is "not justice, just vengeance", how would the law doing it be any more then slow, methodical, state sponsored vengeance? The way people talk about this issue gives me a strange impression;

    Killing murderers; when the individual does it, it's vigilante vengeance, when the state does it then it's fair justice

    That said, I too would've had a good laugh if Katara had killed him.

    Umm...I certainly never said that it was just if the state does it. Although for one thing the state has numerous appeals so they are not killing an innocent man, opportunities vigilante's dont offer. That being said, you did bring up an interesting point. What is the use of the death penalty if it doesnt deter or protect? Thats a discussion for another time and place though...
    I know you never said it was justice if the state does it, and I never claimed you did. It was more a hypothetical "IF anyone reading this believes this, then what seperates justice & revenge? And if that's not what you believe, then ignore my question". It's just that I see people saying in, in many places and discussions of many things, "It wouldn't be justice, it'd just be vengeance." or in the case of a Twilight Zone episode about an ex-nazi getting tormented, "This isn't revenge, this is justice!" and I keep on having this re-occuring question I needed to get off my chest; What really separates the two?
    Did you read my post?
    Ooops, I missed it. I read it now, though.

    Excuse me if I missed the point but it seemed to paint the picture

    "When one person wants to kill a killer to make themselves feel better, it's revenge, but when one thousand people want to kill a killer to make themselves feel better, it's justice."

    I see where you get that from, how about this:
    DrAvatar wrote:

    Part of me does wish he paid a heftier price but I would just not be happy with Katara taking revenge. Katara's first and foremost a motherly figure in the series. Having her viciously kill somebody for revenge just seems to far out of character.

    I also believe if she had killed him it would have been straight up revenge. Killing the one that hurt you is revenge and nothing less. Justice is having a third party examine the situation, decide the fate of the killer, and have someone else execute the punishment chosen.

    I was just about to respond to that with a similar little one or two liner. Yes a third party decides the fate of the killer, but decides on death for what strikes me as similar motives as the vigilante. That definition of Justice covers V from the movie V for Vendetta killing people in the name of Valerie (the girl who was kept in the prison cell next to his), or really any other vigilante killing in the name of other people rather then himself. The court and prison system also kills in the name of other people, but unlike a vigilante it is a branch of the government.

    I'm not implying that all justice is revenge or vice versa, but the line between the two seems quite vague and blurry to me.

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But I do not think that the justice system should allow death, life in prison is much worse anyway.
    I was hoping you'd debate with me further. Anyway, agreed with you on that point except in cases of the protection of others (for example, imprisoned gang leaders can send messages and orders to kill to their gang on the streets).
    Must say that you are fun to debate with. And I'll leave you with this, how would Katara's mother think of her after she killed the pathetic man? What about Hakoda?
    Thanks, you're fun to debate as well

    I do believe that her mother as well as Hakoda would've been dissapointed in her, and not have wanted her to track down and kill the man responsible on his way home from the market in her/his wife's name. I'm not sure what his has to do with the points I was debating though.

    BTW, I was thinking about this last night, wondering what exactly my stance was on the issue, and I realized that I believe it's possible for revenge and justice to co-exist in the same action; sometimes an act of vengeance can bring justice (although I do agree revenge, in and of itself, isn't motive enough for murder), and sometimes a court-sanctioned act of justice can at the same time be an act of revenge (more often in cases of the death penalty)

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  • Avatar of MarryLarry

    MarryLarry

    [72]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 06/16/07
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    Oh how I miss pre-90s television. A time when everything was clear cut. You knew what was right and you knew what was wrong; the good guys you empathized with and the bad guys you loathed. No moral doubts or ambiguity. Everyone had the same answer to the problem: blow everything up.

    Nowadays it's all about inner struggle and fighting your own demons. Only one person knows what Katara should have done and that's Katara herself (and maybe the writers, but they don't count). The answer is different for everyone because there really is no right or wrong solution. It's like choosing what shirt to wear kicked up a few notches.

    That being said, it's a lot easier to say you'll pull the trigger when the gun isn't in your hand than when it actually is.

    The Dark Knight and John Rambo are two prime examples of two individuals mulling over the question: "To kill or not to kill?" Both have a different answer.

    Edited on 07/19/2008 11:09am
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  • Avatar of paoros16

    paoros16

    [73]Jul 19, 2008
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    I dont know if she should of killed him or not but if I was him I would be begging for her to kill me. His life was pretty pathetic.
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    Lionheart08

    [74]Jul 19, 2008
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    pharmmajor wrote:
    Okay, true, killing a murderer doesn't bring back the people they took away, but it still gets a murderer off the face of the earth. That, and I guess it would bring some closure.

    If you want to be technical about it, Katara did recieve closure in the end. Sure, she stated she'd never forgive him, but she also realized that he was not a man worth killing.

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  • Avatar of windseeker15

    windseeker15

    [75]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 01/08/06
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    Teranef wrote:

    What is the use of the death penalty if it doesnt deter or protect?


    The only reason the death penalty is not a deterrent is because it is not uniformly enforced. Even if someone gets the death penalty, it is often years before it takes place and after numerous court appeals.
    If death penalty was given out more often and sooner, say the next week, it would be a HUGE deterrent.

    Teranef wrote:


    I do believe that her mother as well as Hakoda would've been dissapointed in her, and not have wanted her to track down and kill the man responsible on his way home from the market in her/his wife's name.



    Hakoda is a warrior. I'm very sure he's killed a number of FN soldiers.
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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [76]Jul 19, 2008
    • member since: 12/02/06
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    tomtitan wrote:
    What happened to mercy? Compassion? Morals? These are things that separate us from the animal kingdom

    There are hundreds of examples of animal compassion; mostly with dogs protecting humans and other social animals protecting their family. Yes, you could argue, "they're just protecting their family." but so was Katara's mother and anyone else protecting their family; that doesn't mean it's not compassion-motivated. Vampire bats will give their own food (regurgitated blood) to other vampire bats who have not fed in days. In a scientific study in a lab; captive rhesus monkeys were shown to be reluctant and often refused to pull a chain that got them food if they saw that pulling the chain would cause pain to another monkey (through electric shock). They were far less likely to pull the chain if they had been shocked themselves. Elephants have been repeatedly documented by wildlife biologists in the field demonstrating compassion for their own; in one case making a co-ordinated effort to save a baby elephant out of a mud hole. Animals have even acted altruistically to animals whom they didn't know; even across species. National Geographic has documented footage of a hippo scaring a crocodile away from an antelope it had in its jaws and examining the antelope's body (it was too late for the antelope by that point). One wildlife researcher documented an elephant attempting to pull a baby rhino from a mud hole. There are also a number of cases of animals adopting baby animals of another species as their own (maternal instincts you could argue, but it's also maternal instinct in humans, that doesn't mean there's no compassion there as well). Now some anecdotes of animal compassion are indeed not all they're cracked up to be such as in claims of dolphins saving humans, etc. but compassion does exist in the animal kingdom.

    Morals are a bit more rare, but they too exist in other species, although they may be harder to pin down because they are more often expressed through restraint and non-action, rather then action.. In many social animals, harming or even stealing food from the young of a group is off limits and in the unusual case that an animal breaks this rule, that animal is stopped, and sometimes attacked. In monkey troops, monkeys are expected to alert the rest of their group when they find food. When a monkey is caught secretly hogging food for himself it's not tolerated.Some animals, at least on an individual level, do indeed show expectations of certain moral behaviors. Morality is but an evolutionary trait that came into existance to aid the function of society.

    Mercy is the hardest to confirm in another species and I have no credible examples of it, but I have been surprised by the animal kingdom enough to say that it'd be unwaise to say as a blanket generalization that mercy does not exist in any other species whatsoever other then Homo Sapiens.

    We are not separated from other animals by the kinds of behaviors and traits that exists in us, but by the degree it exists.

    Well that post was a lot longer then I inteded . . . I guess I sort of went off a bit. Ah well . . . I'm posting it anyway

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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [79]Jul 19, 2008
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    windseeker15 wrote:
    Hakoda is a warrior. I'm very sure he's killed a number of FN soldiers.
    I agree, but in battle defending his nation, not going out of his way tracking down a retired and now-harmless ex-warrior who is no longer threat to satisfy feelings of anger and outrage. Although I could be wrong about Hakoda's reaction.
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    crzza

    [80]Jul 19, 2008
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    I agree, she should have. But I also think that as a hero, it's your nature to spare the helpless.
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