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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Katara should have killed her mother's murderer

  • Avatar of ChibiMaddiChan

    ChibiMaddiChan

    [21]Jul 18, 2008
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    Hatred, bitterness, revenge, loathing...it seems at the time like killing the person or making them feel the pain that you've gone through would make things better or make the person feel better. But it won't, because in the end, it will never bring the person who's died back. It won't heal the scars of how helpless you felt knowing you couldn't help them or save them from their fate. And on a personal note, it won't help heal the wounds if you had to see what happened in person.

    It takes a special kind of person to take another's life like that, but it takes even more special and strong willed person to rise above it and try to cope and heal the emotional wounds--with time. Them dying, certainly, might make you feel better for a second knowing they're dead, but in the end, accomplishes absolutely nothing: you still have to cope with the pain.

    I personally understand Katara's pain and anger but I'm glad she made the decision she did when she actually had the chance to kill the man. He was a pitiful, sad excuse of a person and it would have been too good for him. Though she shouldn't have said what she did to Sokka. That was way too hurtful, and for her not to apologize made me think less of her.

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  • Avatar of pharmmajor

    pharmmajor

    [22]Jul 18, 2008
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    ChibiMaddiChan wrote:

    Hatred, bitterness, revenge, loathing...it seems at the time like killing the person or making them feel the pain that you've gone through would make things better or make the person feel better. But it won't, because in the end, it will never bring the person who's died back. It won't heal the scars of how helpless you felt knowing you couldn't help them or save them from their fate. And on a personal note, it won't help heal the wounds if you had to see what happened in person.

    It takes a special kind of person to take another's life like that, but it takes even more special and strong willed person to rise above it and try to cope and heal the emotional wounds--with time. Them dying, certainly, might make you feel better for a second knowing they're dead, but in the end, accomplishes absolutely nothing: you still have to cope with the pain.

    But isn't even a temporary healing of that pain a step towards achieving closure? I apologize if this matter touches on wounds that you have from your personal experiences, but I have to ask you: have you ever thought that the death of the person who hurt you and your family would bring some comfort? You don't have to answer if it's too troubling a question. Also, I want you to know that you have my deepest sympathies for the pain you've experienced.

    Edited on 07/18/2008 7:05pm
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    ChaosBladewing

    [23]Jul 18, 2008
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    pharmmajor wrote:
    ChibiMaddiChan wrote:

    Hatred, bitterness, revenge, loathing...it seems at the time like killing the person or making them feel the pain that you've gone through would make things better or make the person feel better. But it won't, because in the end, it will never bring the person who's died back. It won't heal the scars of how helpless you felt knowing you couldn't help them or save them from their fate. And on a personal note, it won't help heal the wounds if you had to see what happened in person.

    It takes a special kind of person to take another's life like that, but it takes even more special and strong willed person to rise above it and try to cope and heal the emotional wounds--with time. Them dying, certainly, might make you feel better for a second knowing they're dead, but in the end, accomplishes absolutely nothing: you still have to cope with the pain.

    But isn't even a temporary healing of that pain a step towards achieving closure? I apologize if this matter touches on wounds that you have from your personal experiences, but I have to ask you: have you ever thought of killing the person who hurt you and your family, even if it only brought momentary relief?


    Short term gain can equal long term loss.
    I highly disagree that killing the man would bring closure. I feel kinda corny saying this but you really do not seem to understand what kind of conviction it takes to torture and kill someone, especially if they are that helpless. It wont make you feel better, and no matter how much you hate the person it will still haunt you. Any relief you felt will vanish to shortly for any real healing to take place over the loss.
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  • Avatar of pharmmajor

    pharmmajor

    [24]Jul 18, 2008
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    ChaosBladewing wrote:
    Short term gain can equal long term loss. I highly disagree that killing the man would bring closure. I feel kinda corny saying this but you really do not seem to understand what kind of conviction it takes to torture and kill someone, especially if they are that helpless. It wont make you feel better, and no matter how much you hate the person it will still haunt you. Any relief you felt will vanish to shortly for any real healing to take place over the loss.

    I suppose I just handle feelings of anger and retribution more seriously than others. Years ago, some scumbag really hurt my family, my grandmother and aunt specifically. I hated the guy, I wanted nothing more than to run him down or put a bullet through his head. But I didn't; I just avoided the S.O.B. at all costs. In the fall of 2006 he died after a bout with cancer, and while I was happy he was dead, I felt unfulfilled because I hadn't done anything to hurt him in retaliation for how he hurt my family. Is it wrong to regret not being able to obtain revenge?

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  • Avatar of ChibiMaddiChan

    ChibiMaddiChan

    [25]Jul 18, 2008
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    pharmmajor wrote:
    ChibiMaddiChan wrote:

    Hatred, bitterness, revenge, loathing...it seems at the time like killing the person or making them feel the pain that you've gone through would make things better or make the person feel better. But it won't, because in the end, it will never bring the person who's died back. It won't heal the scars of how helpless you felt knowing you couldn't help them or save them from their fate. And on a personal note, it won't help heal the wounds if you had to see what happened in person.

    It takes a special kind of person to take another's life like that, but it takes even more special and strong willed person to rise above it and try to cope and heal the emotional wounds--with time. Them dying, certainly, might make you feel better for a second knowing they're dead, but in the end, accomplishes absolutely nothing: you still have to cope with the pain.

    But isn't even a temporary healing of that pain a step towards achieving closure? I apologize if this matter touches on wounds that you have from your personal experiences, but I have to ask you: have you ever thought of killing the person who hurt you and your family, even if it only brought momentary relief?

    I won't lie, I thought about it for years. And having to be in the same room with the person and having to confront them about the matter...it's hard. Very hard. And I'm still not all the way okay with any of it and hell, I don't forgive the bastard (sorry) either for what he did. I never will, I don't think. But I did learn to understand that it's better to heal, even slowly, in the right direction then having a moment of peace only to be brought back to misery. Confronting the person, seeing justice done to him, even if I didn't get to live out my own wild fantasies of revenge, brought closer in a sense because justice was done. But it still won't bring my mother back and it won't take away the pain of having to witness what I and my siblings did or what we went through.

    It may seem odd, but I know taking my own revenge would have been beneath me, it would have made me just as sick as he was, even if it was 'justifiable' to others. It would have dishonored my mother's memory, who never would have wanted me to be that way. And just by me testifying about what happened and helping in that manner helped me get the justice she deserved so I guess I did get revenge. But I didn't have to take a person's life to do it and I think I'm better for it.

    ...

    It's really easy to say that you'd want to kill someone that did bad things like that to you, like kill your parent(s) or someone that special to you if you had the chance, but mentally, I just don't believe I could have done it, even if I had the chance Katara did.

    ...If it's okay with you, I'm going to leave the subject alone. I'm sorry.

    Edited on 07/18/2008 7:16pm
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  • Avatar of pharmmajor

    pharmmajor

    [26]Jul 18, 2008
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    ChibiMaddiChan wrote:

    I won't lie, I thought about it for years. And having to be in the same with the person and having to confront them about the matter...it's hard. Very hard. And I'm still not all the way okay with any of it and hell, I don't forgive the bastard (sorry) either for what he did. I never will, I don't think. But I did learn to understand that it's better to heal, even slowly, in the right direction then having a moment of peace only to be brought back to misery. Confronting the person, seeing justice done to him, even if I didn't get to live out my own wild fantasies of revenge, brought closer in a sense because justice was done. But it still won't bring my mother back and it won't take away the pain of having to witness what I and my siblings did or what we went through.

    It may seem odd, but I know taking my own revenge would have been beneath me, it would have made me just as sick was he was, even if it was 'justifiable' to others. It would have dishonored my mother's memory, who never would have wanted me to be that way. And just by me testifying about what happened and helping in that manner helped me get the justice she deserved so I guess I did get revenge. But I didn't have to take a persons life to do it and I think I'm better for it.

    ...

    It's really easy to say that you'd want to kill someone that did bad things like that to you, like kill her parent(s) or someone that special to you if you had the chance, but mentally, I just don't believe I could have done it, even if I had the chance Katara did.

    ...If it's okay with you, I'm going to leave the subject alone. I'm sorry.

    No problem. Again, I apologize if I brought up painful memories.

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  • Avatar of ChibiMaddiChan

    ChibiMaddiChan

    [27]Jul 18, 2008
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    pharmmajor wrote:
    ChibiMaddiChan wrote:

    I won't lie, I thought about it for years. And having to be in the same with the person and having to confront them about the matter...it's hard. Very hard. And I'm still not all the way okay with any of it and hell, I don't forgive the bastard (sorry) either for what he did. I never will, I don't think. But I did learn to understand that it's better to heal, even slowly, in the right direction then having a moment of peace only to be brought back to misery. Confronting the person, seeing justice done to him, even if I didn't get to live out my own wild fantasies of revenge, brought closer in a sense because justice was done. But it still won't bring my mother back and it won't take away the pain of having to witness what I and my siblings did or what we went through.

    It may seem odd, but I know taking my own revenge would have been beneath me, it would have made me just as sick was he was, even if it was 'justifiable' to others. It would have dishonored my mother's memory, who never would have wanted me to be that way. And just by me testifying about what happened and helping in that manner helped me get the justice she deserved so I guess I did get revenge. But I didn't have to take a persons life to do it and I think I'm better for it.

    ...

    It's really easy to say that you'd want to kill someone that did bad things like that to you, like kill her parent(s) or someone that special to you if you had the chance, but mentally, I just don't believe I could have done it, even if I had the chance Katara did.

    ...If it's okay with you, I'm going to leave the subject alone. I'm sorry.

    No problem. Again, I apologize if I brought up painful memories.

    It's okay really. I've learned to block out the bad memories with the good but I don't like going near the bad ones if at all possible. But yeah, I don't think Katara should have killed her mother's murderer.

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    Teranef

    [28]Jul 18, 2008
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    pharmmajor wrote:

    suss2it wrote:
    And besides what exactly positive things would his death cause?

    Justice would be served for the crimes he committed in the past. Plus, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it.

    I have a question for all who may read this. When punishment neither deters further crimes or protects the innocent from them, nor does it teach the criminal or anyone else not to commit, then what is the difference between justice and revenge?

    And what if the water tribe legal system had done slowly and methodically, after trial, imprisonment and court appeals, what Katara wanted to do when she began her journey, would that've been justice when Katara doing the same thing on her own is just considered vengeance? If so, if you believe Katara doing it is "not justice, just vengeance", how would the law doing it be any more then slow, methodical, state sponsored vengeance? The way people talk about this issue gives me a strange impression;

    Killing murderers; when the individual does it, it's vigilante vengeance, when the state does it then it's fair justice

    That said, I too would've had a good laugh if Katara had killed him.

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    mark426

    [29]Jul 18, 2008
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    I really don't wanna sound corny, but Katara was right with not killing the man. If she did kill him, she'd turn into what she was calling him: a monster. He didn't even have much of a good life anyway, he was constantly doing everything for his unappreciative mother. Katara never has to forgive the man, but she has to just accept the fact that her mother is dead and she won't come back. He doesn't even deserve her forgiveness, anyway. He was a horrible person and what he did to other people came back around to him.
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    pharmmajor

    [30]Jul 18, 2008
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    mark426 wrote:
    I really don't wanna sound corny, but Katara was right with not killing the man. If she did kill him, she'd turn into what she was calling him: a monster.

    He was a thug who killed a young mother in cold blood. How would murdering him have made Katara a "monster?" He wasn't innocent of anything. He deserved to die.

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    mark426

    [31]Jul 18, 2008
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    pharmmajor wrote:

    mark426 wrote:
    I really don't wanna sound corny, but Katara was right with not killing the man. If she did kill him, she'd turn into what she was calling him: a monster.

    He was a thug who killed a young mother in cold blood. How would murdering him have made Katara a "monster?" He wasn't innocent of anything. He deserved to die.

    Because Katara didn't say it exactly, but she pretty much said killing someone makes you a monster.
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    ChaosBladewing

    [32]Jul 18, 2008
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    Teranef wrote:
    pharmmajor wrote:

    suss2it wrote:
    And besides what exactly positive things would his death cause?

    Justice would be served for the crimes he committed in the past. Plus, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it.

    I have a question for all who may read this. When punishment neither deters further crimes or protects the innocent from them, nor does it teach the criminal or anyone else not to commit, then what is the difference between justice and revenge?

    And what if the water tribe legal system had done slowly and methodically, after trial, imprisonment and court appeals, what Katara wanted to do when she began her journey, would that've been justice when Katara doing the same thing on her own is just considered vengeance? If so, if you believe Katara doing it is "not justice, just vengeance", how would the law doing it be any more then slow, methodical, state sponsored vengeance? The way people talk about this issue gives me a strange impression;

    Killing murderers; when the individual does it, it's vigilante vengeance, when the state does it then it's fair justice

    That said, I too would've had a good laugh if Katara had killed him.


    Umm...I certainly never said that it was just if the state does it. Although for one thing the state has numerous appeals so they are not killing an innocent man, opportunities vigilante's dont offer. That being said, you did bring up an interesting point. What is the use of the death penalty if it doesnt deter or protect? Thats a discussion for another time and place though...
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    suss2it

    [33]Jul 18, 2008
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    Teranef wrote:
    pharmmajor wrote:

    suss2it wrote:
    And besides what exactly positive things would his death cause?

    Justice would be served for the crimes he committed in the past. Plus, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it.

    I have a question for all who may read this. When punishment neither deters further crimes or protects the innocent from them, nor does it teach the criminal or anyone else not to commit, then what is the difference between justice and revenge?

    And what if the water tribe legal system had done slowly and methodically, after trial, imprisonment and court appeals, what Katara wanted to do when she began her journey, would that've been justice when Katara doing the same thing on her own is just considered vengeance? If so, if you believe Katara doing it is "not justice, just vengeance", how would the law doing it be any more then slow, methodical, state sponsored vengeance? The way people talk about this issue gives me a strange impression;

    Killing murderers; when the individual does it, it's vigilante vengeance, when the state does it then it's fair justice

    That said, I too would've had a good laugh if Katara had killed him.

    It all comes down to intent. Katara had no intent to bring him to justice, her only intent was to kill him, to make him suffer to make herself feel better. Vengeance is done to satisfy you, justice is done to satisfy society.

    "If you are planning revenge you should begin by digging two graves." That my friend is the difference of justice & vengeance.
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    Teranef

    [34]Jul 18, 2008
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    ChaosBladewing wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    pharmmajor wrote:

    suss2it wrote:
    And besides what exactly positive things would his death cause?

    Justice would be served for the crimes he committed in the past. Plus, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it.

    I have a question for all who may read this. When punishment neither deters further crimes or protects the innocent from them, nor does it teach the criminal or anyone else not to commit, then what is the difference between justice and revenge?

    And what if the water tribe legal system had done slowly and methodically, after trial, imprisonment and court appeals, what Katara wanted to do when she began her journey, would that've been justice when Katara doing the same thing on her own is just considered vengeance? If so, if you believe Katara doing it is "not justice, just vengeance", how would the law doing it be any more then slow, methodical, state sponsored vengeance? The way people talk about this issue gives me a strange impression;

    Killing murderers; when the individual does it, it's vigilante vengeance, when the state does it then it's fair justice

    That said, I too would've had a good laugh if Katara had killed him.

    Umm...I certainly never said that it was just if the state does it. Although for one thing the state has numerous appeals so they are not killing an innocent man, opportunities vigilante's dont offer. That being said, you did bring up an interesting point. What is the use of the death penalty if it doesnt deter or protect? Thats a discussion for another time and place though...
    I know you never said it was justice if the state does it, and I never claimed you did. It was more a hypothetical "IF anyone reading this believes this, then what seperates justice & revenge? And if that's not what you believe, then ignore my question". It's just that I see people saying in many places and discussions of many things, "It wouldn't be justice, it'd just be vengeance." or in the case of a Twilight Zone episode about an ex-nazi getting tormented, "This isn't revenge, this is justice!" and I keep on having this re-occuring question I needed to get off my chest; What really separates the two?
    Edited on 07/18/2008 7:51pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of suss2it

    suss2it

    [35]Jul 18, 2008
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    Teranef wrote:
    ChaosBladewing wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    pharmmajor wrote:

    suss2it wrote:
    And besides what exactly positive things would his death cause?

    Justice would be served for the crimes he committed in the past. Plus, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it.

    I have a question for all who may read this. When punishment neither deters further crimes or protects the innocent from them, nor does it teach the criminal or anyone else not to commit, then what is the difference between justice and revenge?

    And what if the water tribe legal system had done slowly and methodically, after trial, imprisonment and court appeals, what Katara wanted to do when she began her journey, would that've been justice when Katara doing the same thing on her own is just considered vengeance? If so, if you believe Katara doing it is "not justice, just vengeance", how would the law doing it be any more then slow, methodical, state sponsored vengeance? The way people talk about this issue gives me a strange impression;

    Killing murderers; when the individual does it, it's vigilante vengeance, when the state does it then it's fair justice

    That said, I too would've had a good laugh if Katara had killed him.

    Umm...I certainly never said that it was just if the state does it. Although for one thing the state has numerous appeals so they are not killing an innocent man, opportunities vigilante's dont offer. That being said, you did bring up an interesting point. What is the use of the death penalty if it doesnt deter or protect? Thats a discussion for another time and place though...
    I know you never said it was justice if the state does it, and I never claimed you did. It was more a hypothetical "IF anyone reading this believes this, then what seperates justice & revenge? And if that's not what you believe, then ignore my question". It's just that I see people saying in, in many places and discussions of many things, "It wouldn't be justice, it'd just be vengeance." or in the case of a Twilight Zone episode about an ex-nazi getting tormented, "This isn't revenge, this is justice!" and I keep on having this re-occuring question I needed to get off my chest; What really separates the two?
    Did you read my post?
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  • Avatar of JixHedgehog

    JixHedgehog

    [36]Jul 18, 2008
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    Agreed, it would've left the fans of the show with so much than an "I'm better than you, so I won't" clich??

    Zuko could've easily finished the job before they left.

    Oh well, any episode after the Boiling Rock 2 parter has a reputation and the quality standard of the Water/Earth books to live up to

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    TreSketch

    [37]Jul 18, 2008
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    Violence solves nothing. It just begets more violence. Besides, if all you live for is vengeance, once you take revenge, what is there left? You no longer have a purpose in life and your existence is just as empty and meaningless as the person you killed. That said, I think Katara did the right thing. She confronted the man and spared him, showing that not only was she not the coward that he was, but that what he did will never be forgotten, least of all by her. Now he has to dwell on the guilt of what he's done when he's obviously done all he could to forget it. Luckily, he's not quite depraved enough to have no sense of guilt or bad conscience. Of course, with Katara reminding him of what he did to her, he'll bprobably remember a lot of other things he did.

    The worst part of being a victim isn't the physical pain but the mental and emotional scars afterwards. Physical pain is nothing. Wounds heal and are forgotten. Memories... now those hang around forever.

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    suss2it

    [38]Jul 18, 2008
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    JixHedgehog wrote:

    Agreed, it would've left the fans of the show with so much than an "I'm better than you, so I won't" clich??

    Zuko could've easily finished the job before they left.

    Oh well, any episode after the Boiling Rock 2 parter has a reputation and the quality standard of the Water/Earth books to live up to

    Just because you can do something doesn't mean you do it.
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    DrAvatar

    [39]Jul 18, 2008
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    Part of me does wish he paid a heftier price but I would just not be happy with Katara taking revenge. Katara's first and foremost a motherly figure in the series. Having her viciously kill somebody for revenge just seems to far out of character.

    I also believe if she had killed him it would have been straight up revenge. Killing the one that hurt you is revenge and nothing less. Justice is having a third party examine the situation, decide the fate of the killer, and have someone else execute the punishment chosen.

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    DygitalNinja

    [40]Jul 18, 2008
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    a 14-year-old girl killing a man in cold blood

    heavy much

    this IS still a kids show
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