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Sam Puckett is worse than Lucy Van Pelt

  • Avatar of Tkerekes13

    Tkerekes13

    [21]Dec 12, 2010
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    gideonbernstein wrote:
    At least Sam is the way she is because she is raised in poverty by a family of criminals who hardly care about her. Lucy has no excuse at all. Sam torment Freddie because he is a nice guy, and she once said that nice irritates her. She is only friends with Carly because Carly is the one person as though as she is, and even Carly often wonders she she is friends with her.
    You forget, being raised in poverty is no excuse, either. Besides, despite having no excuse, Lucy's action are, in my opinion, far more justified than Sam's, because, in terms outside universe, Dan Schneider seems to think that making Sam do this kinda stuff is funny, enough to the point where it's not funny at all.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    While it's true that Lucy is not quite that mean to Charlie Brown, it's impossible to say she's not as bad as Sam when you look at the way Lucy treats Linus, her own flesh and blood. Lucy punches Linus on numerous occasions, knocks him over with a moving television set, gives his room to a stray dog, and even kicks him out of the house! She even says to his face that she never wanted him to be born. (And then tries to replace him with Snoopy dressed up in baby clothes in an effort to out-do Charlie Brown after Sally is born). That's a heck of a lot meaner than anything Sam does to Freddy. Also, Lucy does physically hurt Charlie Brown in ways other than the football. She body-checks him in golf. And punches him at least once.
    In Lucy's defense, Lucy punching Linus is an example of typical sister-brother warfare, which could be more or less justifiable since it is kinda one-sided.


    Plus, whatever you say that Lucy does is a lot meaner than anything that Sam does to Freddie, they are at least more justifiable than every single thing that Sam does to Freddie. So before you speak otherwise, it is clear to me that Sam undoubtedly crossed the moral event horizon.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    The thinks Lucy did, (kicking Linus out of his own house), could have killed her brother too. And they would have killed him slowly, in a more painful way too. He could have died of hypothermia, been kidnapped and murdered, kidnapped and sexually assaulted and murdered, died of starvation, etc. Besides, if it was really that bad, wouldn't Freddy just stop hanging around her and Carly? He can always leave, like he did in that one episode where he and Sam kissed. Linus can't leave. He lives in the same house as Lucy, even though she verbally abuses her brother constantly. Do you know how damaging it is to have your own sister tell you she wishes you were never born?
    Well, it's safe to assume that Lucy is up for redemption. I mean, from what I've seen, she's never been to juvie before, apparently because she's never done anything illegal, unlike Sam, so that makes Lucy a far better character than Sam.


    I do see what you're getting at, though. Lucy may not have learned about all the dangers in the world, but somebody could have kept reminding her over and over until she had the guts to do something about it.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    I've noticed, a lot of the "incidents" you guys have been pointing out are things that were meant to be jokes. But you're missing a crucial part to Sam's character: 85% or more of what she does is meant to be for comic relief. Sam isn't a "plot" character. She's never the one to set up the joke. That's either Carly or Freddie's job. Seriously, the laugh track plays for Sam WAY more often than it does for Carly and Freddie. You can't count the stuff Sam does for a joke. That's exaggerated for the purpose of being funny. (Emphasis on EXAGGERATED). It's not rational behavior. It's contrary to what is expected of that person, because that's how you write a joke. You make somebody do something that's unexpected. (Like Carly not helping Freddie). The reason you can't count jokes is because what's unexpected is going to change. Like how Drake's stupidity slowly got more and more pronounced throughout Drake and Josh. He clearly was not THAT inherently stupid, as seen in "Drake and Josh Really Big Shrimp" when he berates Josh for signing a contract without reading it first. It takes a certain level of intelligence to know to do that. The writers played up his idiocy for the show. Now, the thing about Lucy is that Lucy's actions are NOT played up for jokes. Lucy's actions set up the jokes in Peanuts, whether it's her punching Charlie Brown in the nose, or her throwing Linus out of his house. The strip starts, Lucy does something incredibly mean, and THEN you get the punch line.
    Well, that's true what you're saying about Lucy's actions, but may I remind you that her actions are far more justifiable than Sam's? Because as you mentioned before, Lucy's actions are meant to be taken seriously, and that, in my mind, makes Lucy a very justifiable character.


    Another thing about the laugh track, if I were in charge of the show, I'd make it so that the laugh track doesn't play for Sam every time. It's almost like they're practically spoiling Sam. Of course, they never seem to spoil Lucy, which may be for the better. Plus, I think you gotta remember that Lucy did have some humorous moments herself, though I don't have time to list them.


    I hope my words got across to you.

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  • Avatar of vanillacupcakes

    vanillacupcakes

    [22]Dec 12, 2010
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    Well if I was Carly and it was real life I would rather "embarass" Freddie than watch him get beat up. I mean it isn't her job to be a mother but there were many times she could have showed concern without people knowing about it. If somebody I know gets beat up by a tennis racket I wouldn't be like "Oh, I'll just not care so I don't embarass him". Her doing the windmills in iSD seemed more comedic and random than anything. It didn't seem to be as "painful" as the majority of Sam's abuses. This may just be me but when my friends trip and fall but aren't hurt I laugh at them.


    @T13: I still disagree with a lot of your comment. Yes, I usually am not extremely sympathetic or concerned for Freddie unless it is taken seriously, like him getting hit by the taco truck or being humiliated for not kissing anybody. I still do not see how Lucy should be more "justified" because it is serious. How exactly would the laugh track "spoil" Sam?


    I agree that the Freudian excuse isn't necessarily valid. I remember hearing a story about a kid who was slacking off and not following the rules and always got away with it because his father died in 9/11. "Oh we can't be hard on him because he's dealing with a lot already". "It's just his way of acting out due to his father's tragic death". He ended up being a drug addict and a dropout because nobody could guide him on the right track. It does make me feel sympathetic for Sam and understand her actions and her character but it doesn't really mean it's okay.


    I think the ones that go over the top are the comedic "No girl will ever love you". I think it's just a little harsh. For me it's the emotional attacks that bother me.


    I agree Lucy has her funny moments too. Tbh I think both aren't necessarily "evil".


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  • Avatar of Tkerekes13

    Tkerekes13

    [23]Dec 12, 2010
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    vanillacupcakes wrote:


    Well if I was Carly and it was real life I would rather "embarass" Freddie than watch him get beat up. I mean it isn't her job to be a mother but there were many times she could have showed concern without people knowing about it. If somebody I know gets beat up by a tennis racket I wouldn't be like "Oh, I'll just not care so I don't embarass him". Her doing the windmills in iSD seemed more comedic and random than anything. It didn't seem to be as "painful" as the majority of Sam's abuses. This may just be me but when my friends trip and fall but aren't hurt I laugh at them.


    @T13: I still disagree with a lot of your comment. Yes, I usually am not extremely sympathetic or concerned for Freddie unless it is taken seriously, like him getting hit by the taco truck or being humiliated for not kissing anybody. I still do not see how Lucy should be more "justified" because it is serious. How exactly would the laugh track "spoil" Sam?


    I agree that the Freudian excuse isn't necessarily valid. I remember hearing a story about a kid who was slacking off and not following the rules and always got away with it because his father died in 9/11. "Oh we can't be hard on him because he's dealing with a lot already". "It's just his way of acting out due to his father's tragic death". He ended up being a drug addict and a dropout because nobody could guide him on the right track. It does make me feel sympathetic for Sam and understand her actions and her character but it doesn't really mean it's okay.


    I think the ones that go over the top are the comedic "No girl will ever love you". I think it's just a little harsh. For me it's the emotional attacks that bother me.


    I agree Lucy has her funny moments too. Tbh I think both aren't necessarily "evil".
    Well, I respect how you view Sam's actions on Freddie, but I still think that itisn't quite funny the way she does them. But it's your opinion and I'll respect it.


    Probably the reason that Lucy's actions are more justified just because they're serious is because, as some people may think, it doesn't come across as exploited, at least, not in the same way. And to answer your question about the laugh track "spoiling" Sam, I think it shows that creator Dan Schneider believes in exploitng such attitudes so that it may reach a certain degree of audiences who may find it funny. Of course, that's just my opinion.


    That's a pretty grim story. Of course, Lucy deserves some sympathy as well, but probably to a slightly smaller degree. Of course, the comic figure in this is probably both Sam and her mother. Her mother, also in poverty, might also be one of the most likely reasons for Sam's behavior, until, of course, when Sam and her mother made up. Hopefully, though, Lucy can be up for redemption.


    If you think that the "No girl will ever love you" thing is over the top, then you should watch the "iMeet Fred" episode. In case you haven't seen it, Freddie doesn't think that Fred's videos are all that funny, which apparently causes Fred to quit making videos. Of course, it was later revealed that he only said that to cause tension between iCarly and his Fred videos. So you could say that Fred's overreaction was more or less justified. What can't be justified, though, is the reaction of everybody else in the episode, who appear to be hardcore fans of Fred. They put Freddie down and throw him out of every club that he's been in. And if that weren't enough, it catches the attention of the press. Why, of all people, would the press be involved in it? Anyways, when they finally meet Fred and Freddie has to apologize, Sam has to force Freddie, as in physically beat Freddie, into saying that Fred's videos are funny. Now you probably never saw Lucy go that far into physical violence, would you?


    I'm glad you agree, though, that Lucy's has her funny moments as well. Still, I think that Lucy has a bit more decency in her than Sam does.

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  • Avatar of Canada_Michael

    Canada_Michael

    [24]Dec 13, 2010
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    A few things:


    I believe Lucy is a lot younger then Sam is even at the beginning of iCarly. The older you get the less willing people are to overlook bad behaviour because the person should know better. Lucy kicking her brother out of the house means nothing because it's not her house & she's a kid, she has parents or a guardian even though we don't see them on screen.


    Lucy is seen as a bully by many in the comic but Sam's actions are accepted & she has friends.


    Sam has not been raised in poverty. She has a cell phone, a computer, high speed internet, and her sister goes away to school. In fact her twin sister is the polar opposite of Sam yet I'm sure she subjected to the same parenting as Sam was.


    The laugh track is used for Sam to let us know that we're supposed to laugh at what she does, instead of thinking it is mean or unacceptable.


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  • Avatar of teenj12

    teenj12

    [25]Dec 13, 2010
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    Canada_Michael wrote:

    A few things:


    I believe Lucy is a lot younger then Sam is even at the beginning of iCarly. The older you get the less willing people are to overlook bad behaviour because the person should know better. Lucy kicking her brother out of the house means nothing because it's not her house & she's a kid, she has parents or a guardian even though we don't see them on screen.


    Lucy is seen as a bully by many in the comic but Sam's actions are accepted & she has friends.


    Sam has not been raised in poverty. She has a cell phone, a computer, high speed internet, and her sister goes away to school. In fact her twin sister is the polar opposite of Sam yet I'm sure she subjected to the same parenting as Sam was.


    The laugh track is used for Sam to let us know that we're supposed to laugh at what she does, instead of thinking it is mean or unacceptable.
    And?
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  • Avatar of vanillacupcakes

    vanillacupcakes

    [26]Dec 13, 2010
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    And what?? I think that's it. What more are you expecting??


    About Sam being raised in poverty: In iPromote Techfoots Sam says something along the lines of "They are going to take everything I have", then Carly says "What do you have?" followed by Sam saying "Good point". Her mom doesn't have a job so where do they get their money from?? Melanie went to boarding school on a scholarship, they didn't pay for it. We don't know whether it is because they are poor or for her intelligence. Again, we probably don't count blog information but there was a blog where Pam briefly dated a rich man and took his money to try to send Sam to Melanie's boarding school. They can't afford to go to some sort of snotty rich school, so they aren't rich. Sam also is the only one without a pearphone, and it could be stolen for all we know. She did steal Missy's. I don't think she's necessarily "poor", but she is probably doesn't have as much as an average person would. The point is that her childhood doesn't seem normal based on her comments about her mom.


    About Melanie: Melanie went to a boarding school. The way she was raised and the way Sam was raised is a lot different. Melanie doesn't have to deal with her mom everyday. Also, we don't know everything about Melanie. IMO she seemed a little too perfect and fake so there could be another side of her we will never know about. Also, Sam is always being compared to Melanie which probably affects Sam too, because she knows she can never be like Melanie. Melanie seems to be favorited a lot.


    With everything else, I understand where you guys are going at. I honestly don't find the violence "funny" but since the writers do I know they are intentionally wanting Sam to beat Freddie to a pulp out of maliciousness but out of comedy. Still...I respect your opinion too.


    During iMeet Fred, I was totally cheering Freddie on and I thought the whole episode was stupid. "Tell those delusional Fred stans who's boss Freddie!!" I still find the emotional attacks more painful, but that's just me and my personal preference.


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  • Avatar of LampEC

    LampEC

    [27]Dec 13, 2010
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    @T13 I agree with some of what you're saying. I think I tend to be less harsh on Sam because as some people are saying "the laugh track is implying that is meant more for comedy" yet it doesn't excuse everything.


    I guess I'm just curious about something.


    Do you think you'd be more sympathetic towards Sam (or to word it better) excuse her actions more easily if there was a sense of justice in the show? As in Sam getting paid back for all the stuff she's done by Freddie or just having crappy circumstances happen to her?

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  • Avatar of Canada_Michael

    Canada_Michael

    [28]Dec 13, 2010
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    vanillacupcakes wrote:


    And what?? I think that's it. What more are you expecting??


    About Sam being raised in poverty: In iPromote Techfoots Sam says something along the lines of "They are going to take everything I have", then Carly says "What do you have?" followed by Sam saying "Good point". Her mom doesn't have a job so where do they get their money from?? Melanie went to boarding school on a scholarship, they didn't pay for it. We don't know whether it is because they are poor or for her intelligence. Again, we probably don't count blog information but there was a blog where Pam briefly dated a rich man and took his money to try to send Sam to Melanie's boarding school. They can't afford to go to some sort of snotty rich school, so they aren't rich. Sam also is the only one without a pearphone, and it could be stolen for all we know. She did steal Missy's. I don't think she's necessarily "poor", but she is probably doesn't have as much as an average person would. The point is that her childhood doesn't seem normal based on her comments about her mom.


    About Melanie: Melanie went to a boarding school. The way she was raised and the way Sam was raised is a lot different. Melanie doesn't have to deal with her mom everyday. Also, we don't know everything about Melanie. IMO she seemed a little too perfect and fake so there could be another side of her we will never know about. Also, Sam is always being compared to Melanie which probably affects Sam too, because she knows she can never be like Melanie. Melanie seems to be favorited a lot.


    With everything else, I understand where you guys are going at. I honestly don't find the violence "funny" but since the writers do I know they are intentionally wanting Sam to beat Freddie to a pulp out of maliciousness but out of comedy. Still...I respect your opinion too.


    During iMeet Fred, I was totally cheering Freddie on and I thought the whole episode was stupid. "Tell those delusional Fred stans who's boss Freddie!!" I still find the emotional attacks more painful, but that's just me and my personal preference.


    I would agree that Sam is not as well off as Carly or Freddie but I wouldn't say she's living in poverty, as some have suggested.

    Do we actually know how long her sister has been away at school? Even if she went away in her elementary school years Pam could have inflicted major damage before she went away. Carly goes over to Sam's, if it was as bad as Sam makes it out to be are we to believe she'd still go over there? Sam, Carly, Freddie own very little that is actually theirs or in their name, so the what do you have comment could apply equally to all of them.
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    saylavee

    [29]Dec 13, 2010
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    First off, I would like to say, for the second time, THAT YOU SHOULDNT COMPARE THE ACTIONS OF AN 8 YEAR OLD TO THE ACTIONS OF A 15 YEAR OLD!!!

    Also, in my psych class we read this article called "Nearly a third of teens get violent" and some studied shows that teen can go towards "violent" behavior even more so if: A) They live in a low income family (as in less than $30,000 income) B) Experienced a tragedy in their life that could cause emotional distress C) Loss of influential family member D)Is a "social outcast" (not as in a loner, but they mean grouped goths, punks, geeks, gansters, etc as social outcasts for whatever reason, so I like to omit this, but do whatever you want) or E) Have poor grades, as in D+ and lower. My teacher even used me, my best friend, and this girl Alexis as proof for A and E...

    So use that knowledge as you fuel.

    One question though, to teenj: How come you quote someone, directly above you no less, and only give a one word/sentence response? Thats kinda annoying especially when you read these forums on a Blackberry.
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    _Flutterlight_

    [30]Dec 13, 2010
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    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    I disagree 100%. I just don't see Sam as comic relief. Sure, Lucy is just plain mean, but I think it's really hypocritical how they take something serious like a sympathetic character getting hurt for no good reason and turn it into something "humorous". Has that ever crossed your mind?


    Yes, it has. But what you don't seem to get is: that's how the writers are going to do things. It's not like I'm the one that somehow decided that Sam smacking Freddie while he's dressed up as a bear is supposed to be funny. I'm saying, if you look critically at the episodes, and pick out the jokes, you will notice that a lot of Sam's behavior is based on the writers TRYING to be funny. I never said that it is.


    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Furthermore, you say that all the mean things that Sam does aren't meant to be taken seriously. Well, that probably proves that you don't have any sympathy for Freddie.


    Again, I never said I have no sympathy for Freddie. I feel as much sympathy for him as I do for every other fictional character on television. I'm saying the way the writers are doing the show isn't meant to be taken seriously. If this was meant to be taken seriously, it wouldn't be on a comedy show! Comedies aren't supposed to be anything other than humorous entertainment. They're not supposed to be taken seriously.


    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Of course, it's more than I can say for Charlie Brown, because as far as I'm concerned, occasionally Charlie Brown himself is the cause of his own misery, so that makes Sam a heck of a lot meaner than Lucy.


    I was talking about what Lucy does to Linus. Not Charlie Brown. What Lucy does to her brother is a lot meaner than what Sam does to Freddie. In Lucy's defense, Lucy punching Linus is an example of typical sister-brother warfare, which could be more or less justifiable since it is kinda one-sided.


    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    In Lucy's defense, Lucy punching Linus is an example of typical sister-brother warfare, which could be more or less justifiable since it is kinda one-sided.


    That makes no sense. How is physically attacking your sibling "justified" if your sibling never hits you back? What Lucy does is awful. Linus almost never deserves anything Lucy does to him. It's not somehow "okay" because Linus is her brother.


    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Well, it's safe to assume that Lucy is up for redemption. I mean, from what I've seen, she's never been to juvie before, apparently because she's never done anything illegal, unlike Sam, so that makes Lucy a far better character than Sam. I do see what you're getting at, though. Lucy may not have learned about all the dangers in the world, but somebody could have kept reminding her over and over until she had the guts to do something about it.


    Lucy's also in second grade, if even. You can't legally send a second grader to juvie. Besides, just because she hasn't been sent to prison yet does not make her a better person. I know a girl who got sent to prison because she accidentally hit a pedestrian, panicked, and fled the scene. She was a lot nicer than the guy (who never got arrested, btw), who actively bullied me every day in grade school. Your logic doesn't work.


    Lucy also knows a lot about all the dangers in the world, as do almost all of the peanuts characters. If you read the strip, you would see that she perfectly understands the reasons why a child in her class cries every day. And yet she feels no qualms about making Linus cry when she tells him she never wanted him to be born.


    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Well, that's true what you're saying about Lucy's actions, but may I remind you that her actions are far more justifiable than Sam's? Because as you mentioned before, Lucy's actions are meant to be taken seriously, and that, in my mind, makes Lucy a very justifiable character.


    So because Lucy is deliberately shown to be real somehow makes what she does to her brother "okay"? I'm sorry, but I can't agree that a sister throwing her brother out of the family home (both parents were gone. She was in charge), is somehow "Justifiable". What on earth did Linus do to deserve that?


    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Another thing about the laugh track, if I were in charge of the show, I'd make it so that the laugh track doesn't play for Sam every time. It's almost like they're practically spoiling Sam. Of course, they never seem to spoil Lucy, which may be for the better. Plus, I think you gotta remember that Lucy did have some humorous moments herself, though I don't have time to list them.


    Well, it doesn't matter how you would run the show, because that's not going to change anything. Just because YOU would do something differently does not somehow make that the way things actually are. The fact is, Sam is a comic relief character. She gets the laughs. That's not spoiling her. That's who her character IS. I realize Lucy does deliver the punch line a lot, but that's almost never in the form of her hitting, or abusing her brother.




    What I'm trying to say is: When Sam is mean, it's supposed to be a joke. When Lucy is mean, it's not supposed to be funny.


    Therefore, Sam's meanness is not as serious as Lucy's meanness, which makes Lucy a lot worse.



    Please only comment on the above argument. I've notices you grossly misinterpreted/misunderstood most of my other posts, so I'm boiling it down to cut down on having to type, "That's not what I meant!" followed by a long, pointless explanation that you're probably not going to bother to read.

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  • Avatar of teenj12

    teenj12

    [31]Dec 13, 2010
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    saylavee wrote:


    One question though, to teenj: How come you quote someone, directly above you no less, and only give a one word/sentence response? Thats kinda annoying especially when you read these forums on a Blackberry.
    I'm sorry,I just like quoting, idk.
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  • Avatar of Tkerekes13

    Tkerekes13

    [32]Dec 14, 2010
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Yes, it has. But what you don't seem to get is: that's how the writers are going to do things. It's not like I'm the one that somehow decided that Sam smacking Freddie while he's dressed up as a bear is supposed to be funny. I'm saying, if you look critically at the episodes, and pick out the jokes, you will notice that a lot of Sam's behavior is based on the writers TRYING to be funny. I never said that it is.
    Ask anybody on TV Tropes. Most users on that sight may agree that whatever Sam does is more serious than funny, with the possible exceptions of beating up Zeebo and beating Ricky Flame in a wrestling match. TV Tropes is a very influential website. It may help you more.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Again, I never said I have no sympathy for Freddie. I feel as much sympathy for him as I do for every other fictional character on television. I'm saying the way the writers are doing the show isn't meant to be taken seriously. If this was meant to be taken seriously, it wouldn't be on a comedy show! Comedies aren't supposed to be anything other than humorous entertainment. They're not supposed to be taken seriously.
    I understand, but I think what I'm trying to say is that Freddie is a character that I happen to sympathize with, pretty much as I do with Meg Griffin on "Family Guy". Freddie and Meg should get along just fine. Of course, I'm sure you may agree that it's no worse than Charlie Brown's misfortunes.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    I was talking about what Lucy does to Linus. Not Charlie Brown. What Lucy does to her brother is a lot meaner than what Sam does to Freddie.
    Well, that's your opinion. To be honest, it's not really a big deal for me, personally. But I guess I do feel a little sorry for Linus because of what Lucy does to him, though I can't really say that it's worse than what Sam does to Freddie because it's probably just as bad.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    That makes no sense. How is physically attacking your sibling "justified" if your sibling never hits you back? What Lucy does is awful. Linus almost never deserves anything Lucy does to him. It's not somehow "okay" because Linus is her brother.
    Okay, I'm sorry. I guess I didn't really think about that. But I think I should remind you that Linus did occasionally bite back at Lucy, though not quite through physical abuse.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Lucy's also in second grade, if even. You can't legally send a second grader to juvie. Besides, just because she hasn't been sent to prison yet does not make her a better person. I know a girl who got sent to prison because she accidentally hit a pedestrian, panicked, and fled the scene. She was a lot nicer than the guy (who never got arrested, btw), who actively bullied me every day in grade school. Your logic doesn't work.


    Lucy also knows a lot about all the dangers in the world, as do almost all of the peanuts characters. If you read the strip, you would see that she perfectly understands the reasons why a child in her class cries every day. And yet she feels no qualms about making Linus cry when she tells him she never wanted him to be born.
    I'm sorry about that. Besides, if you look at it a certain way, you may find thatneither Lucy nor Sam are better characters. Also, your story about the girl going to prison, well, I guess Lucy wouldn't really be involved unless she had a good reason. Then again, it probably couldn't happen in the Peanuts universe.


    I guess Lucy does have that knowledge as well as the next person, but I guess making Linus cry when she tells him that she never wanted him to be born was out of bitterness and frustration. It's quite common, you know.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    So because Lucy is deliberately shown to be real somehow makes what she does to her brother "okay"? I'm sorry, but I can't agree that a sister throwing her brother out of the family home (both parents were gone. She was in charge), is somehow "Justifiable". What on earth did Linus do to deserve that?
    I guess Lucy threw Linus out of the house out of anger. Again, it's a common thing in real life: people get angry and they do stuff that they may regret sooner or later. It probably isn't justifiable, but then again, neither are any of Sam's actions.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Well, it doesn't matter how you would run the show, because that's not going to change anything. Just because YOU would do something differently does not somehow make that the way things actually are. The fact is, Sam is a comic relief character. She gets the laughs. That's not spoiling her. That's who her character IS. I realize Lucy does deliver the punch line a lot, but that's almost never in the form of her hitting, or abusing her brother.
    Well, just as Lucy got her comeuppance several times, I feel it's fair that Sam gets her comeuppance sooner or later. Now THAT'D be worth a laugh!


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    What I'm trying to say is: When Sam is mean, it's supposed to be a joke. When Lucy is mean, it's not supposed to be funny.
    Well, that's entirely your opinion. I feel that when Lucy is mean, it's not really a big deal for me. So I have no choice but to enjoy Lucy's presence.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Therefore, Sam's meanness is not as serious as Lucy's meanness, which makes Lucy a lot worse.
    Actually, Lucy's meanness is just as serious as Sam's meanness. So Lucy is NOT worse than Sam at all. Besides, I think you may find more decency in Lucy than in Sam.

    Edited on 12/14/2010 5:24pm
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  • Avatar of _Flutterlight_

    _Flutterlight_

    [33]Dec 16, 2010
    • member since: 08/29/08
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    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Ask anybody on TV Tropes. Most users on that sight may agree that whatever Sam does is more serious than funny, with the possible exceptions of beating up Zeebo and beating Ricky Flame in a wrestling match. TV Tropes is a very influential website. It may help you more.


    TV Tropes may be "influential" as you say. But you are, yet again, completely missing my point.

    In case I haven't been clear about this, I am basing all my arguments off of the iCarly writer's intentions. My argument is, a lot of what Sam does is MEANT to be funny. Therefore, she is a comic relief character.

    It does not matter if people (even TV Tropes people) THINK she's funny or not. It's what the writers were trying to accomplish.

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    But I guess I do feel a little sorry for Linus because of what Lucy does to him, though I can't really say that it's worse than what Sam does to Freddie because it's probably just as bad.


    If it's just as bad, then why is Sam somehow worse than Lucy?

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Okay, I'm sorry. I guess I didn't really think about that. But I think I should remind you that Linus did occasionally bite back at Lucy, though not quite through physical abuse.


    I don't think Linus biting his sister counts, especially if it was in defense. And it still does little to combat all the times she hit him, signed him up for things he didn't want to do, threatened him, called him stupid, and told him she never wanted him to be born.

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    I'm sorry about that. Besides, if you look at it a certain way, you may find that neither Lucy nor Sam are better characters.


    Originally you were arguing that Sam was worse than Lucy. Are you changing your mind? You're confusing me.

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    I guess Lucy does have that knowledge as well as the next person, but I guess making Linus cry when she tells him that she never wanted him to be born was out of bitterness and frustration. It's quite common, you know.


    I don't think so. She didn't just say it once. She also told Linus, very calmly that, "just seeing him" when he was first born was a let-down, and she griped about his existence on more than one occasion.

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    I guess Lucy threw Linus out of the house out of anger. Again, it's a common thing in real life: people get angry and they do stuff that they may regret sooner or later. It probably isn't justifiable, but then again, neither are any of Sam's actions.


    Lucy wasn't angry when she threw him out. She heard her parents left her in charge and kicked Linus out. When they called to say they were bringing a new brother home, she exclaimed in dismay, "but I just got rid of the old one!"

    It is true that Sam's actions wouldn't be justifiable in real life, but in real life Freddy would stop hanging around her and Carly because of how mean Sam is.

    Kids actually act like Lucy, and that makes her worse because she's at least a realistic character.

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Well, just as Lucy got her comeuppance several times, I feel it's fair that Sam gets her comeuppance sooner or later. Now THAT'D be worth a laugh!


    Sam got picked on by the enormous bully in the episode where they showed her birthday. And she was incredibly hurt when everybody said things that implied she didn't act like a girl. I'd say she's gotten her comeuppance as much as Lucy.

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Well, that's entirely your opinion. I feel that when Lucy is mean, it's not really a big deal for me. So I have no choice but to enjoy Lucy's presence.


    Actually, it's not my opinion, which I why I keep getting so frustrated with people.

    It's a fact that the writers of iCarly want Sams actions not to be taken seriously. As stated earlier, if she was a serious character, she would not have the laugh track played for her as much as she does.

    It doesn't matter if people who AREN'T the writers of iCarly think Sam is a funny character. (Meaning you, me, and everybody else in the world). That's what the writers WANT Sam to be.

    Therefore, her actions are NOT to be taken seriously. They're supposed to be taken lightly, and laughed at. (That doesn't mean people will actually laugh. It just means that the writers think they should.)

    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Actually, Lucy's meanness is just as serious as Sam's meanness. So Lucy is NOT worse than Sam at all.


    So again, are you saying Sam's just as bad as Lucy, because that's different than what you were saying to start out with.
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  • Avatar of LampEC

    LampEC

    [34]Dec 16, 2010
    • member since: 09/15/10
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Sam got picked on by the enormous bully in the episode where they showed her birthday. And she was incredibly hurt when everybody said things that implied she didn't act like a girl. I'd say she's gotten her comeuppance as much as Lucy.


    But she hasn't gotten as much as Freddie. Again, I ask, don't you guys think that it would be less of an issue if there was a sense of Justice regarding Sam? I personally think that Freddie has been physically abused way more with Sam getting away with it.

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    teenj12

    [35]Dec 16, 2010
    • member since: 07/17/10
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    LampEC wrote:

    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Sam got picked on by the enormous bully in the episode where they showed her birthday. And she was incredibly hurt when everybody said things that implied she didn't act like a girl. I'd say she's gotten her comeuppance as much as Lucy.


    But she hasn't gotten as much as Freddie. Again, I ask, don't you guys think that it would be less of an issue if there was a sense of Justice regarding Sam? I personally think that Freddie has been physically abused way more with Sam getting away with it.
    Doesn't Lucy get away with it too?
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  • Avatar of _Flutterlight_

    _Flutterlight_

    [36]Dec 16, 2010
    • member since: 08/29/08
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    teenj12 wrote:
    LampEC wrote:

    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Sam got picked on by the enormous bully in the episode where they showed her birthday. And she was incredibly hurt when everybody said things that implied she didn't act like a girl. I'd say she's gotten her comeuppance as much as Lucy.


    But she hasn't gotten as much as Freddie. Again, I ask, don't you guys think that it would be less of an issue if there was a sense of Justice regarding Sam? I personally think that Freddie has been physically abused way more with Sam getting away with it.
    Doesn't Lucy get away with it too?


    Actually, yes. But the person I was responding to claimed that Lucy occasionally got "comeuppance", which is actually true. There are a few times Linus makes Lucy cry. (In one strip, Lucy's telling him what a bad brother he is, and Linus finally yells, "IF I'M SUCH A BAD BROTHER, WHAT MAKES YOU SUCH A GREAT SISTER. And she cries. In another one, Lucy is asking what on earth is so great about her life, and Linus tells her she has a brother who loves her and thinks the world of her, and she cries there too.)

    So I was giving examples as to when Sam gets "comeuppance" to show she is not somehow less punished than Lucy is.
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  • Avatar of Tkerekes13

    Tkerekes13

    [37]Dec 24, 2010
    • member since: 01/08/06
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    • rank: Volgar the Enforcer
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    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Ask anybody on TV Tropes. Most users on that sight may agree that whatever Sam does is more serious than funny, with the possible exceptions of beating up Zeebo and beating Ricky Flame in a wrestling match. TV Tropes is a very influential website. It may help you more.
    TV Tropes may be "influential" as you say. But you are, yet again, completely missing my point. In case I haven't been clear about this, I am basing all my arguments off of the iCarly writer's intentions. My argument is, a lot of what Sam does is MEANT to be funny. Therefore, she is a comic relief character. It does not matter if people (even TV Tropes people) THINK she's funny or not. It's what the writers were trying to accomplish.
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    But I guess I do feel a little sorry for Linus because of what Lucy does to him, though I can't really say that it's worse than what Sam does to Freddie because it's probably just as bad.
    If it's just as bad, then why is Sam somehow worse than Lucy?
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Okay, I'm sorry. I guess I didn't really think about that. But I think I should remind you that Linus did occasionally bite back at Lucy, though not quite through physical abuse.
    I don't think Linus biting his sister counts, especially if it was in defense. And it still does little to combat all the times she hit him, signed him up for things he didn't want to do, threatened him, called him stupid, and told him she never wanted him to be born.
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    I'm sorry about that. Besides, if you look at it a certain way, you may find that neither Lucy nor Sam are better characters.
    Originally you were arguing that Sam was worse than Lucy. Are you changing your mind? You're confusing me.
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    I guess Lucy does have that knowledge as well as the next person, but I guess making Linus cry when she tells him that she never wanted him to be born was out of bitterness and frustration. It's quite common, you know.
    I don't think so. She didn't just say it once. She also told Linus, very calmly that, "just seeing him" when he was first born was a let-down, and she griped about his existence on more than one occasion.
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    I guess Lucy threw Linus out of the house out of anger. Again, it's a common thing in real life: people get angry and they do stuff that they may regret sooner or later. It probably isn't justifiable, but then again, neither are any of Sam's actions.
    Lucy wasn't angry when she threw him out. She heard her parents left her in charge and kicked Linus out. When they called to say they were bringing a new brother home, she exclaimed in dismay, "but I just got rid of the old one!" It is true that Sam's actions wouldn't be justifiable in real life, but in real life Freddy would stop hanging around her and Carly because of how mean Sam is. Kids actually act like Lucy, and that makes her worse because she's at least a realistic character.
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Well, just as Lucy got her comeuppance several times, I feel it's fair that Sam gets her comeuppance sooner or later. Now THAT'D be worth a laugh!
    Sam got picked on by the enormous bully in the episode where they showed her birthday. And she was incredibly hurt when everybody said things that implied she didn't act like a girl. I'd say she's gotten her comeuppance as much as Lucy.
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Well, that's entirely your opinion. I feel that when Lucy is mean, it's not really a big deal for me. So I have no choice but to enjoy Lucy's presence.
    Actually, it's not my opinion, which I why I keep getting so frustrated with people. It's a fact that the writers of iCarly want Sams actions not to be taken seriously. As stated earlier, if she was a serious character, she would not have the laugh track played for her as much as she does. It doesn't matter if people who AREN'T the writers of iCarly think Sam is a funny character. (Meaning you, me, and everybody else in the world). That's what the writers WANT Sam to be. Therefore, her actions are NOT to be taken seriously. They're supposed to be taken lightly, and laughed at. (That doesn't mean people will actually laugh. It just means that the writers think they should.)
    Tkerekes13 wrote:
    Actually, Lucy's meanness is just as serious as Sam's meanness. So Lucy is NOT worse than Sam at all.
    So again, are you saying Sam's just as bad as Lucy, because that's different than what you were saying to start out with.
    Well, as you are basing your arguments off of the writers' intentions, I am basing my arguments off of the way certain critics would think about making Sam doing the things she does be comic relief, which I don't find remotely amusing. And if you ask me, I think the writers are completely nuts to the point where their material is more annoying than funny.


    I think Sam is worse than Lucy because of the way her attitude is executed, which is what you might call forced. The way Lucy's attitude is executed is fairly more natural in terms of bossiness and mean-heartedness. For what it's worth, though, Lucy is at least more likable, as whatever her actions are which you don't find funny, the writers make it so she means better through them, eventhough they are, of course, mean.


    Though I still think that Lucy did most of those things to Linus out of bitterness and frustration, I think Lucy signed Linus up for those things that he didn't want to do because she thought it'd be good for him. Of course, that's my theory, and I wish for you to respect it.


    Okay, disregard what I said about neither Lucy or Sam being better characters. I guess I was just saying that so you'd quit arguing with me. Besides, I stand by my position that Lucy is a saint compared to Sam.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    I don't think so. She didn't just say it once. She also told Linus, very calmly that, "just seeing him" when he was first born was a let-down, and she griped about his existence on more than one occasion.
    I guess that's pretty dim. Still, though, whatever the reasons for this are, they probably come from a certain part of her which says "I can't afford to have a brother!" Of course, that's understandable, as there are plenty of kids out there who pretty much feel the same way.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Lucy wasn't angry when she threw him out. She heard her parents left her in charge and kicked Linus out. When they called to say they were bringing a new brother home, she exclaimed in dismay, "but I just got rid of the old one!" It is true that Sam's actions wouldn't be justifiable in real life, but in real life Freddy would stop hanging around her and Carly because of how mean Sam is. Kids actually act like Lucy, and that makes her worse because she's at least a realistic character.
    I don't think it makes Lucy worse just because she's a more realistic character. I think it makes Lucy somebody we can relate to because anybody who acts like that, no one would want to hang around them. So I rest my case.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Sam got picked on by the enormous bully in the episode where they showed her birthday. And she was incredibly hurt when everybody said things that implied she didn't act like a girl. I'd say she's gotten her comeuppance as much as Lucy.
    Well, that's good to know, as Sam probably deserves it more than Lucy does.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    Actually, it's not my opinion, which I why I keep getting so frustrated with people. It's a fact that the writers of iCarly want Sams actions not to be taken seriously. As stated earlier, if she was a serious character, she would not have the laugh track played for her as much as she does. It doesn't matter if people who AREN'T the writers of iCarly think Sam is a funny character. (Meaning you, me, and everybody else in the world). That's what the writers WANT Sam to be. Therefore, her actions are NOT to be taken seriously. They're supposed to be taken lightly, and laughed at. (That doesn't mean people will actually laugh. It just means that the writers think they should.)
    Okay, so it's not your opinion, but I think that the writers have bad taste in comedy. I don't care if they want Sam to be a funny character. The way her actions are executed just don't make her funny. As a critic, this is something I feel I should point out.


    _Flutterlight_ wrote:
    So again, are you saying Sam's just as bad as Lucy, because that's different than what you were saying to start out with.
    Okay, disregard that. I wish to stick by my opinion that Sam is worse than Lucy.

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    teenj12

    [38]Dec 24, 2010
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    To me, I don't think it matters what your reasoning is for doing mean things. Lucy is no bettter than Sam.
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    MadameCat

    [39]Jan 2, 2011
    • member since: 12/19/10
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    • posts: 209

    Why are we fighting over this? They're both mean on varying levels.

    Edited on 01/02/2011 2:36pm
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  • Avatar of Tkerekes13

    Tkerekes13

    [40]Jan 8, 2011
    • member since: 01/08/06
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    teenj12 wrote:
    To me, I don't think it matters what your reasoning is for doing mean things. Lucy is no bettter than Sam.
    Well, that's your opinion. I still find Lucy more likable than Sam.


    MadameCat wrote:
    Why are we fighting over this? They're both mean on varying levels.
    I know, but somehow I find Lucy more likable.

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