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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [101]Sep 23, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Azula planned the attack. Ty Lee lucked out. I think what Ty Lee did was incredible, but Azula's attack was much more incredible. As much as I hate to admit it, Azula is no match for Avatar Aang. Defeating Aang while in the Avatar state is a much bigger accomplishment than beating Azula.

    Let us not forget something just as impressive - taking down Iroh. Iroh was not hit in the back - he was facing Azula head on, and was more than ready to defend himself. But Azula still burned him down. Proving once and for all that power has nothing to do with winning fights, as far as I'm concerned.

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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [102]Sep 23, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.

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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [103]Sep 23, 2008
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    I'm going out for dinner. I'll be back at around 8:30 to continue this argument
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [104]Sep 23, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.


    Julius Caesar freak But it's true, Ozai doesn't deserve the power he holds. He hasn't done anything to earn my respect.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [105]Sep 23, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.

    Julius Caesar freak But it's true, Ozai doesn't deserve the power he holds. He hasn't done anything to earn my respect.

    Heh - I go through phases with these various figures of history comparable to Azula. It used to be Shi Huang Di, now it's Caesar, although I am starting to lean towards Napoleon Bonaparte a bit. When I'm not fascinated by history, I revert to my true self - dedicated Star Wars freak

    But anyway, you're quite right - Ozai really didn't do too much. While he deserves credit for being the most powerful Firebender on the planet, and being incredibly ruthless and evil, when you get down to it he really didn't do all that much. His ultimate plan of evil - burning down the Earth Kingdom, was Azula's plan, not his. The one thing Ozai did come up with by himself was calling himself the Phoenix King.

    Edited on 09/24/2008 1:11pm
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  • Avatar of Chaospyro

    Chaospyro

    [106]Sep 23, 2008
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    Considering the argument about Azula is still raging on, I'll repost what I posted a couple of pages ago which kind of got ignored.. :S

    Chaospyro wrote:

    Now on the topic about Azula vs Zuko *ventures in nervously*. I have to say that, IMO, Azula did lose the final agni-kai against Zuko on the moment she chose to attack Katara. I don't think it mattered that the attack never reached Katara, because the moment she chose to direct it that way, she was disqualified and so as a result lost that fight. Also Zuko did have the edge in that fight, I am sure even the most dye hard Azula fan wouldn't really deny that. Ofcourse losing that one fight doesn't take anything away from her overall character. She was certainly the smartest and most manipulative villain, and was very good at getting what she wanted. Though like every other character she had her faults as well.


    Also about Azula taking out Aang in CoD, she did hit him on the back as he was rising. So he was not expecting it, which is similar to the way Azula got knocked off by Ty Lee in boiling rock. Also when Azula strikes Iroh in the episode "the chase", again he was distracted.
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  • Avatar of shadowysea07

    shadowysea07

    [108]Sep 24, 2008
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    please stop posting in this thread. if you want to continue this arguement please take it to the before mentioned pinned thread.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [109]Sep 24, 2008
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    Chaospyro wrote:
    Considering the argument about Azula is still raging on, I'll repost what I posted a couple of pages ago which kind of got ignored.. :S
    Chaospyro wrote:
    Now on the topic about Azula vs Zuko *ventures in nervously*. I have to say that, IMO, Azula did lose the final agni-kai against Zuko on the moment she chose to attack Katara. I don't think it mattered that the attack never reached Katara, because the moment she chose to direct it that way, she was disqualified and so as a result lost that fight. Also Zuko did have the edge in that fight, I am sure even the most dye hard Azula fan wouldn't really deny that. Ofcourse losing that one fight doesn't take anything away from her overall character. She was certainly the smartest and most manipulative villain, and was very good at getting what she wanted. Though like every other character she had her faults as well.
    Also about Azula taking out Aang in CoD, she did hit him on the back as he was rising. So he was not expecting it, which is similar to the way Azula got knocked off by Ty Lee in boiling rock. Also when Azula strikes Iroh in the episode "the chase", again he was distracted.

    That is precisely what makes it so impressive. Aang had fully gone into the Avatar State - he had more than enough power to take everyone in the room on head to head. So Azula snuck around behind him and blasted him in the back. So Azula taking down of Aang was a tactical maneuver, Ty Lee hitting Azula was an unexpected betrayal.

    Iroh may have been distracted, but that in no way subtracts from Azula's take-down of him. He had no particular reason to be distracted - he was facing Azula head on and plainly knew that she was probably up to something. The moment he showed a sign of distraction though, she picked up on it and struck.

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  • Avatar of Valin610

    Valin610

    [110]Sep 24, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    Iroh may have been distracted, but that in no way subtracts from Azula's take-down of him. He had no particular reason to be distracted - he was facing Azula head on and plainly knew that she was probably up to something. The moment he showed a sign of distraction though, she picked up on it and struck.

    Iroh was quite distracted for a brief second and Azula used that to her advantage. Iroh noticed Toph and didn't realize she was part of Aang's group; in that short moment, Azula knew this would be her best opportunity to escape and went forward without hesitation. That just shows she's VERY perceptive not so much that she's better than Iroh in anyway. Anyone can get distracted like that and lose at what they're doing, it happens all the time.

    Iroh can easily handle Azula anytime, that was proven in 201, he boots her off the ship!

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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [111]Sep 24, 2008
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    I think Axrendale was referring to the scene when Azula told Zuko in S2 that Ozai wanted him back and forgave him, but she was lying and planning on capturing him.
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  • Avatar of Valin610

    Valin610

    [112]Sep 24, 2008
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    isabelwhatx wrote:
    I think Axrendale was referring to the scene when Azula told Zuko in S2 that Ozai wanted him back and forgave him, but she was lying and planning on capturing him.
    If he is, then Azula didn't do anything at all. The Dai Li pretty much ambushed him and trapped him in crystal. Although, he was able to break out of it since he came to Katara and Aangs rescue. But even after that, Iroh let himself get captured.
    Edited on 09/24/2008 2:09pm
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [113]Sep 24, 2008
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    Valin610 wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    I think Axrendale was referring to the scene when Azula told Zuko in S2 that Ozai wanted him back and forgave him, but she was lying and planning on capturing him.
    If he is, then Azula didn't do anything at all. The Dai Li pretty much ambushed him and trapped him in crystal. Although, he was able to break out of it since he came to Katara and Aangs rescue. But even after that, Iroh let himself get captured.

    Still not what I'm talking about, ahahaha. Iroh didn't get trapped down there. He went down there willingly. I'm talking about in the beginning of S2, Azula visited Zuko and Iroh and welcomed them home. Iroh was suspicious, but left with Zuko. Azula then ambushed them.
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  • Avatar of rgc19

    rgc19

    [114]Sep 24, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.

    My friend, I'm afraid you're mistaking fame for greatness. The two may not be exclusive, but they are certainly not the same.
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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [115]Sep 24, 2008
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    rgc19 wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.

    My friend, I'm afraid you're mistaking fame for greatness. The two may not be exclusive, but they are certainly not the same.

    Historically, greatness is almost the same as fame. You are not known in history because you were a drug addict or you played a role in a box office miracle. In history, you're famous for achieving great things. So, in this case, fame and greatness is the same.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [116]Sep 24, 2008
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    rgc19 wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.

    My friend, I'm afraid you're mistaking fame for greatness. The two may not be exclusive, but they are certainly not the same.

    Greatness begets fame. Case in point is the example I used here. Marcus Maecullus was a Roman General who achieved a great deal. He fought 39 battles across the Mediterranean, winning vast lands, and later went on to have a great political career. His greatest claim to fame is as the person behind the murder of Aristotle. In his day, he was feared and hated by enemies of the Roman Empire just as much as Ozai was hated and feared by enemies of the Fire Nation.

    So what is the difference? Why is Caesar still famous today, and Maecullus forgotten?

    The answer is that when all is said and done, Maecullus simply did not embody "greatness". He was an average tactician and general - all he really knew how to do was crush his opponents with sheer numbers, preferably while he was sitting a long way back from the front line, just giving the orders.

    Then you have Caesar, a warrior at heart who loved nothing better than charging in at the head of his men to fight on the front line. He was a brilliant tactician who couldn't care less about having an advantage in numbers, sometimes heedlessly rushing in to attack enemy armies that outnumbered him 10 - 1 (needless to say, he still always won). His political career was far more dynamic than Maecullus's, obviously.

    See the difference? It's all about skill and style, as well as what the accomplishments lead to.

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  • Avatar of ddendong116

    ddendong116

    [117]Sep 24, 2008
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    *looks at icon. looks at signature.*

    ya.
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  • Avatar of rgc19

    rgc19

    [118]Sep 24, 2008
    • member since: 05/20/07
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    Axrendale wrote:
    rgc19 wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.

    My friend, I'm afraid you're mistaking fame for greatness. The two may not be exclusive, but they are certainly not the same.

    Greatness begets fame. Case in point is the example I used here. Marcus Maecullus was a Roman General who achieved a great deal. He fought 39 battles across the Mediterranean, winning vast lands, and later went on to have a great political career. His greatest claim to fame is as the person behind the murder of Aristotle. In his day, he was feared and hated by enemies of the Roman Empire just as much as Ozai was hated and feared by enemies of the Fire Nation.

    So what is the difference? Why is Caesar still famous today, and Maecullus forgotten?

    The answer is that when all is said and done, Maecullus simply did not embody "greatness". He was an average tactician and general - all he really knew how to do was crush his opponents with sheer numbers, preferably while he was sitting a long way back from the front line, just giving the orders.

    Then you have Caesar, a warrior at heart who loved nothing better than charging in at the head of his men to fight on the front line. He was a brilliant tactician who couldn't care less about having an advantage in numbers, sometimes heedlessly rushing in to attack enemy armies that outnumbered him 10 - 1 (needless to say, he still always won). His political career was far more dynamic than Maecullus's, obviously.

    See the difference? It's all about skill and style, as well as what the accomplishments lead to.

    I never said they were completely opposed. But I can think of many instances in which they are. What are the standards for fame? In my opinion, a person is famous when they are recognizable to a great number of people, even if said people have little 'interest' in them or their field, so to speak. Greatness, on the other hand, is my opinion of a person's individual merit. Not necessarily how he is viewed by history. Again, we have conflicting standards, but to me, the two are different.

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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [119]Sep 24, 2008
    • member since: 06/30/08
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    rgc19 wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    rgc19 wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    isabelwhatx wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Let's put it this way - if Azula does not meet the definition of greatness, then nobody else in the show does, except Aang, and possibly Iroh, for all that we know of him, mabye Ozai too, although that one's a stretch.

    Ozai has some pretty awesome moments

    Everyone in the show has awsome moments. Having awsome moments is simply not enough to qualify someone for "greatness" though, in the sense that we are arguing over. It's the definition of greatness that seperates people like Marcus Maecullus (whom nobody has heard of), and Julius Caesar, whom everyone has heard of.

    My friend, I'm afraid you're mistaking fame for greatness. The two may not be exclusive, but they are certainly not the same.

    Greatness begets fame. Case in point is the example I used here. Marcus Maecullus was a Roman General who achieved a great deal. He fought 39 battles across the Mediterranean, winning vast lands, and later went on to have a great political career. His greatest claim to fame is as the person behind the murder of Aristotle. In his day, he was feared and hated by enemies of the Roman Empire just as much as Ozai was hated and feared by enemies of the Fire Nation.

    So what is the difference? Why is Caesar still famous today, and Maecullus forgotten?

    The answer is that when all is said and done, Maecullus simply did not embody "greatness". He was an average tactician and general - all he really knew how to do was crush his opponents with sheer numbers, preferably while he was sitting a long way back from the front line, just giving the orders.

    Then you have Caesar, a warrior at heart who loved nothing better than charging in at the head of his men to fight on the front line. He was a brilliant tactician who couldn't care less about having an advantage in numbers, sometimes heedlessly rushing in to attack enemy armies that outnumbered him 10 - 1 (needless to say, he still always won). His political career was far more dynamic than Maecullus's, obviously.

    See the difference? It's all about skill and style, as well as what the accomplishments lead to.

    I never said they were completely opposed. But I can think of many instances in which they are. What are the standards for fame? In my opinion, a person is famous when they are recognizable to a great number of people, even if said people have little 'interest' in them or their field, so to speak. Greatness, on the other hand, is my opinion of a person's individual merit. Not necessarily how he is viewed by history. Again, we have conflicting standards, but to me, the two are different.

    What exactly do you mean by merit? If we are talking about skills, then I'd say this argument is pretty much over. If you mean merit in the sense of meritous, then that too can be a complicated argument.

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  • Avatar of isabelwhatx

    isabelwhatx

    [120]Sep 24, 2008
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    Greatness leads to fame. They are two different things, but greatness and fame come hand in hand when greatness is first.
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