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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Ozai and Azula redemptions

  • Avatar of ISpeakTheTruth

    ISpeakTheTruth

    [1]Jul 23, 2008
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    After seeing the finale I found that a majority of people believe that Azula's emotional breakdown showed them that there might be a chance of her becoming a good person if her mother was to return. I think that is a very valid argument that the main reason that she was so cruel was because she felt her mother didn't love her and if Ursa was to return and convince her otherwise not only do I think that she would become sane again but maybe see what she had done was wrong.

    Now here's my harder sell and my belief that Ozai can find redemption in his solitude. I keep thinking back to the Ember Island story that showed when Ursa was still apart of the family that all four of them were happy as a family. In the episode The Beach we're told that when Azula and Zuko were children they would go to the Ember Island every summer and implied that it was a good part of their family memories. But it seems that as soon as Ursa left that everything started to fall apart and go very very bad. Now I'm not here to tell you that Ozai is a nice person he's not and he's done far more bad than good but that doesn't mean that there isn't still good in him. After the end of seson 2 Ozai seemed more than happy to let Zuko come back, and during the eclipse when Zuko tells him that he wasn't the one that shot Aang and that he knew the avatar was still alive Ozai though really angry didn't shun him. Now think about that he more or less lied to his face about killing the Avatar and kept the fact that he strongly felt that Aang was still alive to himself which is a major threat to his plans of winning the war and yet he didn't turn his back on him, it wasn't until Zuko told him that he was going to side with the avatar that Ozai threatened to kill Zuko. It seems to me that he was going to let Zuko get away with lying to him and putting the war in direct jeopardy because I think he wanted to keep his family together.

    Then in the Finale when Zuko is crowned Fire Lord and visits his father in his cell Ozai doesn't really do what we would expect an evil person who hates Zuko would say. Though he's obviously not happy he doesn't seem hateful towards him, if it had been Azula he visits she would have said something like he's a fraud or that he's weak and didn't deserve the be Fire Lord. But with Ozai there was almost and air of acceptance that he was the lagitamite ruler. I've watched the scene many times and I didn't pick up any hate in Ozai's voice just extreme disapointment at how everything turned out that he had all the power in the world but was now a non-bending prisoner. And when Zuko tells him that he was lucky that the Avatar spared his life he didn't get angry about that he just shrugged a little at it. And there mustn't have been much hate for Zuko because he obviously told him where his mother was (Though we aren't let in on the secret ourselves)

    But here is my most powerful reason as to why I think that Ozai was good and still has good in him is that Ursa married him. And she is debatably the most loving and caring characters ever shown on the show, and she loved Ozai enough to be his wife and have his children... doesn't that speak volumes? Now would a character that is so loving marry a monster? No, I think she saw the good in him that she saw in Azula that they were both probably very confused characters. And I think that if Ursa came back into both Ozai's and Azula's lives that they could find some sort of peace. I'm not going to go as far as to say that Ozai would totaly repent his ways and be a part of the Gaang that would never happen but perhaps he'd be willing to accept the directiong that Zuko will take the Nation as an acceptable one.

    That's my two cents on the matter that I think both Ozai and Azula have good in them and CAN find some sort of redemption so what do you think?

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  • Avatar of Halostar11

    Halostar11

    [2]Jul 23, 2008
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    I really like what you have going here, one flaw.

    In the finale, when Azula was hallucinating about her mother, she didn't seem too happy to see her, so i doubt that her coming back would do anything to affect Azula's well-being. But i still want to know what you have to say to this.
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  • Avatar of Breaker94

    Breaker94

    [3]Jul 23, 2008
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    whoa, so long
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  • Avatar of toosmooth

    toosmooth

    [4]Jul 23, 2008
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    Breaker94 wrote:
    whoa, so long
    That's what she said.
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  • Avatar of Halostar11

    Halostar11

    [5]Jul 23, 2008
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    toosmooth wrote:
    Breaker94 wrote:
    whoa, so long
    That's what she said.


    OMFG LMFAO THAT WAS GOOD!
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  • Avatar of ISpeakTheTruth

    ISpeakTheTruth

    [6]Jul 23, 2008
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    Halostar11 wrote:
    I really like what you have going here, one flaw. In the finale, when Azula was hallucinating about her mother, she didn't seem too happy to see her, so i doubt that her coming back would do anything to affect Azula's well-being. But i still want to know what you have to say to this.

    I believe the reason why she wasn't happy to see her and reacted so strongly to her saying that she loved her was because it would mean that Azula had been wrong this entire time about everything. If he mother loved her than she didn't have to use fear to make everyone follow her... if she believed that her mother loved her than that means that she might not have been alone in the end, that her friends would still be with her because she would have loved them instead of scaring them.

    Basically she didn't want to believe that she had gone down the wrong path... which she was starting to believe anyway, then seeing her mother and hearing her made her know that she had been wrong. But she had done too much and gone to far to change what she'd done.

    But I believe after the finale now that everythining has been settled she'd be able to accept her mothers love and perhaps learn to return it one day.

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  • Avatar of toosmooth

    toosmooth

    [7]Jul 23, 2008
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    Halostar11 wrote:
    toosmooth wrote:
    Breaker94 wrote:
    whoa, so long
    That's what she said.


    OMFG LMFAO THAT WAS GOOD!
    Sarcasm?
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  • Avatar of WiseLad

    WiseLad

    [8]Jul 23, 2008
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    Azula knows how her mother feels

    remember that the finale scene of the hairbrush, it was Azula's thoughts of what her mom would say, and actually what her mom said was very lucid and on the spot

    Azula knows what is the right thing, she simply could not still accept it, and that is what made her crazy

    that she knew the truth, and what she should do, but could not bring herself to act on that, instead refusing the truth and choosing to live the lie, and that is the worst thing one can do, live a lie, and know is a lie

    at least Ozai lived a lie, but he thought it was the truth
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  • Avatar of skye3001

    skye3001

    [9]Jul 23, 2008
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    Ozai, I don't believe, can reform. He's too proud. I can understand Zuko reforming but Ozai almost killed his own son because he wanted to be fire lord. He's power hungry and corrupt and unless they want to put the same time into giving Ozai a nice backstory like Zuko had, then making him reform would be silly.
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  • Avatar of ISpeakTheTruth

    ISpeakTheTruth

    [10]Jul 23, 2008
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    But he's not too proud anymore, his defeat and imprisionment seems to have humbled him a good deal. And if anyone knows about reforming than it would be Zuko and he still thinks that his father can change. Also Ozai's going to be alive for another 30-40 years at least that's alot of time to look at what he's done and change.
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  • Avatar of suss2it

    suss2it

    [11]Jul 23, 2008
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    skye3001 wrote:
    Ozai, I don't believe, can reform. He's too proud. I can understand Zuko reforming but Ozai almost killed his own son because he wanted to be fire lord.
    It wasn't his idea to kill Zuko, it was Azulon's order.
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  • Avatar of WiseLad

    WiseLad

    [12]Jul 23, 2008
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    suss2it wrote:
    skye3001 wrote:
    Ozai, I don't believe, can reform. He's too proud. I can understand Zuko reforming but Ozai almost killed his own son because he wanted to be fire lord.
    It wasn't his idea to kill Zuko, it was Azulon's order.


    It wasn't Yon Rah's idea to kill Kya, it was Azulon's order

    does that excuse his actions too?
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  • Avatar of gilvatar

    gilvatar

    [13]Jul 23, 2008
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    suss2it wrote:
    skye3001 wrote:
    Ozai, I don't believe, can reform. He's too proud. I can understand Zuko reforming but Ozai almost killed his own son because he wanted to be fire lord.
    It wasn't his idea to kill Zuko, it was Azulon's order.
    But he didn't refuse to do it either. If someone said to Zuko 'Hey proove you could be firelord by killing your son." do you think he would do it? No! You think Ozai went "No way! I love my son! I couldn't do that!"? I don't think so. + he used his nephew's death as an excuse to get the throne. Like "Haha, I have heirs and you don't" I seriously think it would take a brain washing and a few mind control devices to turn Ozai around.
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  • Avatar of ISpeakTheTruth

    ISpeakTheTruth

    [14]Jul 23, 2008
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    1. I doubt Ozai was given a kill Zuko or not it was probably kill Zuko or I'll kill your entire family kind of thing. But again what Azulon said was telling that the order was 'You will know the pain of lossing your first born son' so it seems that Azulon believes that Ozai cares about Zuko more than he showed.

    2. His point was actually valid. What Ozai tried to do has been done through history of monarchy societies and has ended up being best for the country. And most importantly Iroh never seemed to care that he wasn't firelord at all so if he had no problem with it we shouldn't either.
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  • Avatar of LeonMorado

    LeonMorado

    [15]Jul 23, 2008
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    ozai doesn't need redemption. he remained true to his character to the bitter end. he was strong, he was proud, and he didn't make excuses or lose his dignity in defeat. He wasn't the stereotypical bully villain who reveals himself to be a coward when he's beaten by resorting to a cheap shot or begging for mercy, and he didn't suddenly 'see the light' and repent for his wicked ways. it's because of that consistency that his character ended up with a realistic sense of humanity.

    it's amazing how somilar azula and zuko really are. in the same way that zuko always wanted the love and acceptance that azula got from ozai, azula was jealous of the closeness between zuko and ursa. there was such complecity in her breakdown that it would be stupid to say it was all because of one thing or another, but a part of it was clearly that is wasn't ursa who that azula was a monster. it was azula herself. deep down, azula does have a conscience, and it finally caught up with her when she realized the price of following the path laid forth by ozai. in expanding on azula and her monstrous personality, they actually ended up making her teh most human character in the show.
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  • Avatar of skye3001

    skye3001

    [16]Jul 23, 2008
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    More like "Kill Zuko or I'll kill you." Hmm, my son or myself. LET'S GO WITH MY SON!!!!!!

    Fire lord Azulon probably didn't think he cared about his son. He took for granted his own son's caring capabilities and thought that an "eye for an eye" was the best way to take care of the situation.
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    gilvatar

    [17]Jul 23, 2008
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    ISpeakTheTruth wrote:
    1. I doubt Ozai was given a kill Zuko or not it was probably kill Zuko or I'll kill your entire family kind of thing. But again what Azulon said was telling that the order was 'You will know the pain of lossing your first born son' so it seems that Azulon believes that Ozai cares about Zuko more than he showed.

    2. His point was actually valid. What Ozai tried to do has been done through history of monarchy societies and has ended up being best for the country. And most importantly Iroh never seemed to care that he wasn't firelord at all so if he had no problem with it we shouldn't either.
    I don't think the "I'll kill you're family'" was an option b/c it would be stupid on his part. If he killed Ozai and his family (assuming it includes Ursa & Ozai) then who would he have left? Iroh, who has not wife or son thus ending the bloodline. With "kill Zuko' you still have Azula to continue the bloodline. It might have just been "kill your son." Why Ozai didn't think of killing Azulon to save Zuko (that was Ursa's idea) could be the real question here.
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  • Avatar of skye3001

    skye3001

    [18]Jul 23, 2008
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    Plus, there's the whole "Agni Kai" with his son. Still think he's important to him? I think it's more about his image as a ruler.
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  • Avatar of ISpeakTheTruth

    ISpeakTheTruth

    [19]Jul 23, 2008
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    Now I've had this debate a number of times but if I must I'll bring it up again. Zuko was in the war room of his nation, he knew he was suppose to keep his mouth shut but he stood up and said that a general's plan was not only wrong but was treaturous... Zuko knew that what he did would end in an Agni Kai. Iroh even says that Zuko proclaimed that he wasn't affraid to face the general because he was old.

    Keeping how arrogant he was when he saw it was his father (Who is the supperior bender) he fell to his knees infront of the entire Nation watching... now Ozai asked Zuko several times just stand and fight but he didn't he more or less cried to his daddy saying how sorry he was. This nation is at war and if the potential future ruler of the nation is showing such weakness how is he suppose to rule? Ozai could have killed him because Azula was a supperior pick anyway but he didn't he spared him.

    And if you're going to say well why did he have to burn him? It was an Agni Kai infront of all the Fire Nation generals. Zuko had shown them all disrespect by speaking out of tern in a war room meeting he wasn't even invited to in the first place.

    It was cruel but in a war Ozai couldn't have let Zuko disrespect the generals then show such cowardise it woulnd't fly.
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  • Avatar of skye3001

    skye3001

    [20]Jul 23, 2008
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    You're right. It's much better for him to permanently disfigure and then banish his son by giving him an impossible task that was, to the fire nation's knowledge, impossible than to show him mercy.

    He could've given him an easier task, like serving as a soldier to the general he disrespected for a year rather than make him hunt for a person who's disappeared for 100 years.

    Edited on 07/23/2008 3:46pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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