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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Forgiveness vs Atonement (Southern Raiders SPOILERS!!)

Is there a difference between repentance and atonement

  • Avatar of fatsomama

    fatsomama

    [1]Jul 18, 2008
    • member since: 01/19/07
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    Spoilers for The Southern Raiders follow, you've been warned so NO WHINING!

    I created this new topic because of the necessity of the poll. I wanted to see how people think about this.

    What are your thoughts on what Katara did? She found the man who killed her mother, and she let him live. She let go of her vengeance. She states at the end that she didn't forgive him, but she wasn't willing to kill him.

    Then Zuko puts an amazingly complicated question to Aang. He asks him how he is going to deal with Fire Lord Ozai when he tried so hard to convince Katara that revenge isn't the way. We all saw his internal dilemma.

    So what should he do? Does Fire Lord Ozai owe the world some sort of atonement for his actions, not just repentance (which we know he probably won't give)? Does he owe a death for all the death he's caused? Does Azula? Is there no such thing as atonement, only revenge? Should they just be taken from power and let loose in the populace? Should they be thrown in prison for 5 million years? Forced to plant fluffy bunny flowers for eternity for rehabilitation?

    Your thoughts...

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  • Avatar of tomtitan

    tomtitan

    [2]Jul 18, 2008
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    First off, I'd just like to say that I'm SO happy they're going to make a big deal out of the whole 'he has to kill him' idea. I wouldn't have wanted the issue to be shoved to the side, because Aang is a peaceful person trapped in a situation where he has to fight.

    As for the issue, define 'atonement' in more detail.
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  • Avatar of cdkee

    cdkee

    [3]Jul 18, 2008
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    This is different. This is not revenge...well..it could be...but this is necessary for the free world to continue. Ozai's death will be a symbol for the dissolution of tyranny and oppression in the world of Avatar.
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  • Avatar of fatsomama

    fatsomama

    [4]Jul 18, 2008
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    tomtitan wrote:
    First off, I'd just like to say that I'm SO happy they're going to make a big deal out of the whole 'he has to kill him' idea. I wouldn't have wanted the issue to be shoved to the side, because Aang is a peaceful person trapped in a situation where he has to fight.

    As for the issue, define 'atonement' in more detail.
    My personal definition of 'atonement' is thus:

    Bob runs into Jerry's house with his car. Bob gets out and apologizes profusely saying it was an accident, he didn't mean it, etc. Jerry forgives Bob. Bob still 'owes' Jerry for the damage to his house though. Bob has to 'atone' for running into Jerry's house. As repentant as Bob wants to be, the damage to Jerry's house is something he needs to 'pay' for.
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  • Avatar of tomtitan

    tomtitan

    [5]Jul 18, 2008
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    So even though he's forgiven, he still needs to pay. I understand. Ozai probably needs to atone for his sins, but let's face it, what are the odds of that? At the same time, killing him is not the right answer, and at the same time, forgiving him isn't the right answer, as he's clearly not going to repent any time soon.

    This is a very tricky situation, and my opinion is to wait until it's resolved.
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  • Avatar of acr64

    acr64

    [6]Jul 18, 2008
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    As much as it pains me to say it, and believe me, it does, what if Gelem was right?
    His spoiler makes no sense, but it would fit into the situation comfortably.
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  • Avatar of amdragfreak

    amdragfreak

    [7]Jul 18, 2008
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    acr64 wrote:
    As much as it pains me to say it, and believe me, it does, what if Gelem was right? His spoiler makes no sense, but it would fit into the situation comfortably.

    Trust me, I'm 95% sure that Gelem is 100% correct. I'm disappointed as well.

    But Azula and Ozai deserve to die. They have done so much more than Yon-Rah, and they do deserve to die. Attempted murder, planning on murdering a child, child abuse and god knows what else! I really don't see a way that the world will be safe with Ozai and Azula alive. Killing them may not be the answer, but keeping them alive certainly isn't the answer either.

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  • Avatar of kratosgod69

    kratosgod69

    [8]Jul 18, 2008
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    Before I saw TBR I thought THE FALL may have been a viable action but it wouldnt make any sense at all now.
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  • Avatar of assailant_blade

    assailant_blade

    [9]Jul 18, 2008
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    ozai definatley needs to die. it's not like he was being loyal to his country or following orders. he had the power to stop the war the whole time, but chose not to. Sure he does deserve a chance to repent for his sins, but that's not going to happen. we've seen his pride in DOBS, he didn't beg for his life he dared zuko to try and kill him. So i doubt he will repent for his sins, if he is left alive, a lot of people in the avatar world would probably be unhappy too. the best thing to do would be to kill him.

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  • Avatar of Pumpkinhead1870

    Pumpkinhead1870

    [10]Jul 18, 2008
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    fatsomama wrote:

    Spoilers for The Southern Raiders follow, you've been warned so NO WHINING!

    I created this new topic because of the necessity of the poll. I wanted to see how people think about this.

    What are your thoughts on what Katara did? She found the man who killed her mother, and she let him live. She let go of her vengeance. She states at the end that she didn't forgive him, but she wasn't willing to kill him.

    Then Zuko puts an amazingly complicated question to Aang. He asks him how he is going to deal with Fire Lord Ozai when he tried so hard to convince Katara that revenge isn't the way. We all saw his internal dilemma.

    So what should he do? Does Fire Lord Ozai owe the world some sort of atonement for his actions, not just repentance (which we know he probably won't give)? Does he owe a death for all the death he's caused? Does Azula? Is there no such thing as atonement, only revenge? Should they just be taken from power and let loose in the populace? Should they be thrown in prison for 5 million years? Forced to plant fluffy bunny flowers for eternity for rehabilitation?

    Your thoughts...

    To repent doesn't automatically mean that you are asking for forgiveness. Repentance is often caused by inner morals or unfavorable consequences, but this just means that the particular person is feeling regretful about their course of actions. Also atonement is drastically different in meaning than vengeance. While vengeance is often self driven and based off the idea of personal gain, atonement represents reparations that are based off of the idea for greater good in the future.

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  • Avatar of fatsomama

    fatsomama

    [11]Jul 18, 2008
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    tomtitan wrote:
    So even though he's forgiven, he still needs to pay. I understand. Ozai probably needs to atone for his sins, but let's face it, what are the odds of that? At the same time, killing him is not the right answer, and at the same time, forgiving him isn't the right answer, as he's clearly not going to repent any time soon.

    This is a very tricky situation, and my opinion is to wait until it's resolved.
    Yeah, this is one of those situations where you have Aang, a peace loving, non-violent person...and his mission is to stop this guy who is so evil. *mike meyers voice* 'tis a powah shtraggle, yesh yesh...'
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  • Avatar of paoros16

    paoros16

    [12]Jul 18, 2008
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    I think that if Katara killed him she would have become more like the Hama hating everyone in the fire nation
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  • Avatar of qtwanderer

    qtwanderer

    [13]Jul 18, 2008
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    paoros16 wrote:
    I think that if Katara killed him she would have become more like the Hama hating everyone in the fire nation
    I think so too..especially when she was bloodbending.
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  • Avatar of qtwanderer

    qtwanderer

    [14]Jul 18, 2008
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    I think when Aang woops Ozai and is about to make the final blow, his monk-ness will kickin and he would let Ozai live and walk away...but knowing Ozai, he would use that to try and cheapshot Aang, which Aang will do something that might result in Ozai's death.
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  • Avatar of suss2it

    suss2it

    [15]Jul 18, 2008
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    assailant_blade wrote:

    ozai definatley needs to die. it's not like he was being loyal to his country or following orders. he had the power to stop the war the whole time, but chose not to. Sure he does deserve a chance to repent for his sins, but that's not going to happen. we've seen his pride in DOBS, he didn't beg for his life he dared zuko to try and kill him. So i doubt he will repent for his sins, if he is left alive, a lot of people in the avatar world would probably be unhappy too. the best thing to do would be to kill him.

    He was being loyal to his country by continuing the war. What good would it do the Fire Nation if the war suddenly came to a halt?
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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [16]Jul 18, 2008
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    Why do people keep talking as if Aang fighting/killing the fire lord is some sort of act of vengeance/blood atonement/venting of anger? Aang is defending and saving the world, and that's all it's about. The fire nation government and military are the equivilant of a mass murderer with a machine gun, the other nations are the equivilent of innocent bystanders at a mall, bank, school campus, or where-ever else a shooting may occur, and Aang is the equivilent of a cop forced to shoot him in the head to stop him from taking more innocent lives.

    I cross-referenced atonement in 4 dictionaries and it's basically; making amends, reparations, compensation for a wrong action, repaying for something bad one has done. No way in a million years will Ozai in anyway atone or repent for his actions. Killing/imprisoning him is not atonement, as it isn't voluntary, it's not him making ammends. It is also not vengeance, since the motive has nothing to do with anger or 'getting even'.

    Now you may argue that killing Ozai will not stop the war, in which case it's unnessacary, and that killing him is not the protection of innocent lives, in which case you may argue that it is an act of vengeance or "justice". One of the differences between revenge and atonement is that revenge is just causing suffering to get even, while atonement involves the wrong-dower actively giving back and making up for what he's done. Ozai's rotting, maggot ridden corpse doesn't give anything back to society (unless you use it to fertilize and plant a tree), nor does his starved, aching body sitting in a prison cell for all eternity. Making ammends would involve some sort of community service. However, I don't believe it would be safe (or realistic) to allow him to simply live among society as a peasant, or to make him do any form of out-of-prison community service, or to banish him. I don't think dethroning him will be enough. I think, for the protection of the innocent, his influence on society has to be completely removed with nil chance of him ever having influence again. This could be to through death, imprisonment, or even having his face ripped off by Koh, or some other means but it has to happen.

    Besides, Hama is going to "rot in prison forever", the warden in the episode "Imprisoned" was thrown in the ocean and presumed dead, combustion man was killed, Zhao was taken by the ocean spirit and killed, do you foresee Ozai and Azula having a more lenient fate then these far lesser villains? Do you see a nameless prison warden in the 6th episode of season 1 having a worse conclusion then the main villain of the entire series, the guy behind all of this? Ozai's gotta go down in a blaze of epicness greather then any previous villain. Whether it's gonna be by the hands of Aang (most likely), an angry spirit, or bring about his own destruction in some form (lightning backfiring, taking his own life, burning down his own palace right on top of himself, etc.) , we don't know, but I believe he's going to fare at least as bad, if not worse, as Hama or Combustion man.

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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [17]Jul 18, 2008
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    acr64 wrote:
    Killing them may not be the answer, but keeping them alive certainly isn't the answer either.
    You know, there's only one thing in between that . . . and it's usually seen in zombie movies (Unless you want to turn Ozai and Azula into vampires, and boy, what a disaster that would be)

    Unless you're referring to fighting him until he ends up killing himself (accidentally or intentionally), or fighting him for years until he dies of natural cause; maybe a disease or volcanic eruption will handle him mid-battle.

    Edited on 07/18/2008 12:25pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of speechless8582

    speechless8582

    [18]Jul 18, 2008
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    I would post something epic and long, but i just want t see what will happen. XD
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  • Avatar of suss2it

    suss2it

    [19]Jul 18, 2008
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    Teranef wrote:

    acr64 wrote:
    Killing them may not be the answer, but keeping them alive certainly isn't the answer either.
    You know, there's only one thing in between that . . . and it's usually seen in zombie movies (Unless you want to turn Ozai and Azula into vampires, and boy, what a disaster that would be)

    Unless you're referring to fighting him until he ends up killing himself (accidentally or intentionally), or fighting him for years until he dies of natural cause; maybe a disease or volcanic eruption will handle him mid-battle.

    Or simply imprisoning them. But oh wait that's to simple to work.
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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [20]Jul 18, 2008
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    suss2it wrote:
    Teranef wrote:

    acr64 wrote:
    Killing them may not be the answer, but keeping them alive certainly isn't the answer either.
    You know, there's only one thing in between that . . . and it's usually seen in zombie movies (Unless you want to turn Ozai and Azula into vampires, and boy, what a disaster that would be)

    Unless you're referring to fighting him until he ends up killing himself (accidentally or intentionally), or fighting him for years until he dies of natural cause; maybe a disease or volcanic eruption will handle him mid-battle.

    Or simply imprisoning them. But oh wait that's to simple to work.
    If you haven't noticed, because it involves Ozai still living it falls under "keeping him alive" which acr64 said wasn't the answer, (but nor was killing him)
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