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The Bottom Line Is:
Trent deserves Gwen, and Cody deserves Beth
TELETOON
| ultimatekey wrote: |
| The Bottom Line Is: Trent deserves Gwen, and Cody deserves Beth |
| ultimatekey wrote: |
| The Bottom Line Is: Trent deserves Gwen, and Cody deserves Beth |
| HankL wrote: |
| As someone who has observed young women who have had guys they liked as a brother or a friend fall in love with them and shower them with excessive unwanted attention, I can tell you that Gwen and Cody would never work. Gwen clearly considers Cody to be nice and one of the few sane people she met while on TDI. However she has no romantic interest in him because she just plain isn't attracted to him. In fact, she even described him as reminding her of an ANNOYING LITTLE BROTHER. If a woman sees a man in that light, there's not going to be any romantic or sexual interest. None. Zero. Zip. Cody is a preppie, he's over-eager, he tries to hard to impress Gwen and falls flat on his face almost every single time. Trent is a musician, he is (in TDI) more reserved than Cody, he's taller than Gwen while Cody is shorter (sorry folks, but most women prefer a guy who's taller than she is), he's more muscular (many women prefer a bigger guy) and he has more common interests with her. Trent clearly likes Gwen and while he showed interest in her, he did so slowly, didn't do anything (in TDI) to make her uncomfortable, was friendly but not over-eager (in TDI) and gave her space to just be with him as opposed to pressuring her like Cody did. When they finally hooked up, it was her who kissed him first, and in my experience that kind of thing shows that Trent was who her true interest was in. If any of you have been in a situation where a friend or coworker was constantly showering you with unwanted romantic feelings, pressuring you to get with them or hook up with them when you didn't feel any interest in them (I have been through this on the receiving end), you know how annoying, stressful and uncomfortable it makes you feel. When somebody like that keeps on coming on strong to you, it makes you dread being around them and doesn't do anything to enhance your romantic interest in them. If anything, it maks you start to hate them. In a work or school environment, what Cody was doing could be considered harassment and even on a reality show, if someone goes over the top in romantic interests with someone or in personal interactions, they can be removed from the show (it's happened on The Real World and Road Rules before.) The bottom line is that while Cody does have some things going for him--he is nice and he truly selflessly cares for Gwen, she just doesn't like him that way and given how over-eager he was on TDI, he may never get that kind of a chance with her because of it. Cody would have had a better shot if he'd been interested in Beth or Katie, but instead he went after someone who was clearly not interested in him and now he looks like a fool in her eyes. Despite Trent's meltdown, what I saw with Gwen before she got kicked off was some remorse and regret for how things went down. Some of it was Trent's own fault, but I think Gwen also saw some of her own fault in this as well. I'm very interested in seeing what happens in the next TDI Aftermath. I have a feeling that if she and Trent get some alone time and they hash through things honestly without others getting into their faces or business, they will probably get back together because they are well suited for eachother. Just my $0.02... |
This is probably the best defense for this pairing I've seen yet...
But like you said, he was one of the few sane people on the island.
Personally I feel like we never really saw enough of Cody to make any sort of final judgements; we never really saw how he acted around Gwen after helping her out Trent/Getting rejected because he got tossed out next episode. The only time we ever heard him speak after was A. When he was explaining his recovery and tan, and B. Not caring that Gwen rejected him because she's happy. Now granted from what the new season's shown it looks like the writers are shooting down any possible change in him, but this is based on one line. Do I think that put Gwen with Cody? No, sadly, because it would make for a just as good, better even, pairing than Gwen/Trent. Again, all an opinion, and the minority of course, so the chances of it every really happening are poor. Regardless, I'm saying that it's not completely impossible for anything to happen between them, if even for like a, one or two episodes.
Also, we never got too much REAL interaction between Gwen and Cody that wasn't A. Gwen in a really bad mood or B. A time when she was really focused about Trent. Before anything gets truly slated in stone about how she really feels about him, I think we need to have a little more conversation between the two of them where the odds are not completely against him. Again, not saying it's definitely going to suddenly jump over to Gwen/Cody, but it's not like Gwen opinion of people hasn't changed before; it COULD happen again.
| ultimatekey wrote: |
| The Bottom Line Is: Trent deserves Gwen, and Cody deserves Beth |
I think a few of you have seen too many John Hughes movies. The geeky dork who keeps on throwing himself at the girl who is clearly out of his league NEVER gets that girl! He either gets used for some free dinners and then ditched for a more handsome, stylish and talented guy or he annoys the Hell out of the girl whom he keeps on throwing himself at and then gets his butt kicked by the girl's boyfriend or the girl gets a restraining order put on him to get him to leave her alone! Plus if you talk to ANY woman with ANY self esteem, which Gwen has in spades, she will tell you that the one thing that will turn her off more than anything is a guy whom she is not romantically ineterested in, whom she has made it CLEAR that she has no romanic interest in, continually bugging her, sniffing her (as Cody did) and throwing himself at her. Such behaviour CREEPS OUT MOST GIRLS and Gwen clearly did not like his actions and she made it clear to him that she didn't. What part of "I'm not going out with you EVER!" did you Cody honks not hear?
I'm not saying Cody is a bad guy--he's clearly nice, but he is also quite clearly CLUELESS about the female of the human species. Throwing yourself repeatedly at someone who has clearly said that they have no interest in you is NOT going to suddenly make them interested in you. If anything it's a one way ticket to making them never want to see you again if you keep it up.
I realize this is a cartoon, but come on let's apply a little common sense.
As someone who has observed young women who have had guys they liked as a brother or a friend fall in love with them and shower them with excessive unwanted attention, I can tell you that Gwen and Cody would never work. Gwen clearly considers Cody to be nice and one of the few sane people she met while on TDI. However she has no romantic interest in him because she just plain isn't attracted to him. In fact, she even described him as reminding her of an ANNOYING LITTLE BROTHER. If a woman sees a man in that light, there's not going to be any romantic or sexual interest. None. Zero. Zip.
Ridiculous assumption work, here.
| HankL wrote: |
| If any of you have been in a situation where a friend or coworker was constantly showering you with unwanted romantic feelings, pressuring you to get with them or hook up with them when you didn't feel any interest in them (I have been through this on the receiving end), you know how annoying, stressful and uncomfortable it makes you feel. When somebody like that keeps on coming on strong to you, it makes you dread being around them and doesn't do anything to enhance your romantic interest in them. If anything, it maks you start to hate them. In a work or school environment, what Cody was doing could be considered harassment and even on a reality show, if someone goes over the top in romantic interests with someone or in personal interactions, they can be removed from the show (it's happened on The Real World and Road Rules before.) |
Again, assumptions galore. I do admit Cody was a bit over the top- but duh, he's a cartoon.
My reason for calling it assumptions? I know a married couple who started out VERY MUCH like Gwen and Cody(though not as extreme), and they are among the happiest people I know.
| HankL wrote: |
I think a few of you have seen too many John Hughes movies. The geeky dork who keeps on throwing himself at the girl who is clearly out of his league NEVER gets that girl! He either gets used for some free dinners and then ditched for a more handsome, stylish and talented guy or he annoys the Hell out of the girl whom he keeps on throwing himself at and then gets his butt kicked by the girl's boyfriend or the girl gets a restraining order put on him to get him to leave her alone! Plus if you talk to ANY woman with ANY self esteem, which Gwen has in spades, she will tell you that the one thing that will turn her off more than anything is a guy whom she is not romantically ineterested in, whom she has made it CLEAR that she has no romanic interest in, continually bugging her, sniffing her (as Cody did) and throwing himself at her. Such behaviour CREEPS OUT MOST GIRLS and Gwen clearly did not like his actions and she made it clear to him that she didn't. What part of "I'm not going out with you EVER!" did you Cody honks not hear? I'm not saying Cody is a bad guy--he's clearly nice, but he is also quite clearly CLUELESS about the female of the human species. Throwing yourself repeatedly at someone who has clearly said that they have no interest in you is NOT going to suddenly make them interested in you. If anything it's a one way ticket to making them never want to see you again if you keep it up. I realize this is a cartoon, but come on let's apply a little common sense. |
| HankL wrote: |
| I think a few of you have seen too many John Hughes movies. The geeky dork who keeps on throwing himself at the girl who is clearly out of his league NEVER gets that girl! He either gets used for some free dinners and then ditched for a more handsome, stylish and talented guy or he annoys the Hell out of the girl whom he keeps on throwing himself at and then gets his butt kicked by the girl's boyfriend or the girl gets a restraining order put on him to get him to leave her alone! Plus if you talk to ANY woman with ANY self esteem, which Gwen has in spades, she will tell you that the one thing that will turn her off more than anything is a guy whom she is not romantically ineterested in, whom she has made it CLEAR that she has no romanic interest in, continually bugging her, sniffing her (as Cody did) and throwing himself at her. Such behaviour CREEPS OUT MOST GIRLS and Gwen clearly did not like his actions and she made it clear to him that she didn't. What part of "I'm not going out with you EVER!" did you Cody honks not hear? I'm not saying Cody is a bad guy--he's clearly nice, but he is also quite clearly CLUELESS about the female of the human species. Throwing yourself repeatedly at someone who has clearly said that they have no interest in you is NOT going to suddenly make them interested in you. If anything it's a one way ticket to making them never want to see you again if you keep it up. I realize this is a cartoon, but come on let's apply a little common sense. |
First off, I've never seen a John Hughes movie. I don't even know who that is.
Second, you're being way too certain about everything. How do you know Gwen's like all these other people, hm? Really, tell me. It's not like we're seeing inside the characters' heads or anything. There's really no way you can decide whether or not she's forgiven him because, as I said, they haven't been shown in any sort of conversation since he asked her out, and not because Gwen refused to talk to him either; it's the fact that they just haven't been around each other enough. Which is why I'm looking forward to the next Aftermath, because we can finally see where the two of them stand, hopefully. If she still doesn't like him at all, then okay, you're right. But you can't know for sure about something like that just by assumptions and generalizations. See, unlike you, I'm not trying to argue that it will or will not happen, but that it CAN happen, even if it's unlikely. I don't expect her like start dating him, but at the same time thinking it's completely impossible is just an opinion. And just because Gwen said that doesn't mean it's going to hold for the rest of her life; nothing in this show is ever slated in stone. People say things they don't mean all the time. Don't take everything so literally.
And we don't know whether or not Cody's changed, like I said. Until we see more, there's no way to be 100% certain about any of this.
The person that said they knew a couple that were like Cody and Gwen are talking about a huge exception to general observed human behaviour here. As far as assumption, there are no assumptions here--this is based upon things Gwen said, based upon her facial gestures/reactions to Cody's behaviour and what was said in the confessional by Gwen regarding Cody.
What usually happens when an over eager, short guy starts pushing himself on a woman who is more attractive and taller than him is usually the following:
1. She gets creeped out
2. She tells him to buzz off or worse.
3. If said dork keeps on sniffing her, calling her pretty, bugging her, etc. she may kick him in the crotch (Gwen whacked him in the crotch with a canoe paddle)
4. If she has a boyfriend and said dork keeps on bugging her, she sics her boyfriend on him and the boyfriend kicks the dork's butt.
5. If she doesn't have a boyfriend, her dad/older male cousin/uncle/stepdad/mom's boyfriend will either come intimidate him or have a talk with the dork's father and warn him to tell his son to stop bugging the girl.
6. If the dork is bugging her at school, she'll tell the Vice Principal, dork will be taken into the office and warned and if it doesn't stop parents will be notified and dork will be on notice.
7. If the dork is bugging her at work, the boss will be told and the dork will be warned to cut it out or be fired.
8. If it happens on a reality show, producers will warn the dork to cut it out or he's off the show.
Even if Cody has changed and is no longer bugging Gwen (which albeit seems to be the case), it is very rare that the girl's feelings for the dork are going to change. Usually there is a bad taste in her mouth regarding earlier experience and even if she can tolerate that guy as an acquaintance, the chance of her ever developing a romantic interest in the dork is nearly ZERO. Dorks only score hot chicks in John Hughes movies or if they end up getting rich like Bill Gates and then, do you REALLY think the hot chick would stay with the dork if he suddenly lost all his money? Again BE REALISTIC HERE.
Cody and Gwen will never happen. As Gwen said herself "I am not going out with you EVER."
John Hughes movies include "Pretty in Pink", "Some Kind of Wonderful", "The Breakfast Club". "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" is in the same vein as John Hughes flicks are (i.e. the dork scoring the hot girl).
You want a movie that shows what happens to the dork when he tries to get the hot girl? Watch "The Last American Virigin." Dork tries to score with hot girl. Dork strikes out. Hot girl hooks up with hot guy, gets pregnant and hot guy skips out on her. Dork cashes out his savings to pay for hot girl's abortion and takes care of her afterwards, thinking she's now his girlfriend. After buying hot girl an expensive necklace, dork finds hot girl making out with hot guy she had hooked up with before, and dork drives off crying, roll credits. Dorks like Cody will only get used by hot girls for free dinners and favours but won't get anywhere romantically with them because they do not have what it takes to score the girl.
Also most guys don't understand this: Women are the ones who pick and choose their mates. The guys have to put themselves out and risk rejection, but the guys do not get to pick and choose. The women choose their mates. Gwens ACTIONS in the show have made it clear that she doesn't like Cody that way, She said she'd never go out with him ever. She whacked him in the crotch with a paddle. She didn't give a crap when he got mauled by the bear. She gave him her bra out of PITY because he arranged for her to canoe back with Trent, but that's all it was--pity and paying off a favour so he couldn't expect something from her later. Gwen's actions show that she chose Trent pure and simple. Even after breaking up with Trent, there's nothing in there with her saying or thinking "Maybe I should give Cody a shot now." because women don't typically do that.
| HankL wrote: |
The person that said they knew a couple that were like Cody and Gwen are talking about a huge exception to general observed human behaviour here. As far as assumption, there are no assumptions here--this is based upon things Gwen said, based upon her facial gestures/reactions to Cody's behaviour and what was said in the confessional by Gwen regarding Cody. What usually happens when an over eager, short guy starts pushing himself on a woman who is more attractive and taller than him is usually the following: 1. She gets creeped out 2. She tells him to buzz off or worse. 3. If said dork keeps on sniffing her, calling her pretty, bugging her, etc. she may kick him in the crotch (Gwen whacked him in the crotch with a canoe paddle) 4. If she has a boyfriend and said dork keeps on bugging her, she sics her boyfriend on him and the boyfriend kicks the dork's butt. 5. If she doesn't have a boyfriend, her dad/older male cousin/uncle/stepdad/mom's boyfriend will either come intimidate him or have a talk with the dork's father and warn him to tell his son to stop bugging the girl. 6. If the dork is bugging her at school, she'll tell the Vice Principal, dork will be taken into the office and warned and if it doesn't stop parents will be notified and dork will be on notice. 7. If the dork is bugging her at work, the boss will be told and the dork will be warned to cut it out or be fired. 8. If it happens on a reality show, producers will warn the dork to cut it out or he's off the show. Even if Cody has changed and is no longer bugging Gwen (which albeit seems to be the case), it is very rare that the girl's feelings for the dork are going to change. Usually there is a bad taste in her mouth regarding earlier experience and even if she can tolerate that guy as an acquaintance, the chance of her ever developing a romantic interest in the dork is nearly ZERO. Dorks only score hot chicks in John Hughes movies or if they end up getting rich like Bill Gates and then, do you REALLY think the hot chick would stay with the dork if he suddenly lost all his money? Again BE REALISTIC HERE. Cody and Gwen will never happen. As Gwen said herself "I am not going out with you EVER." John Hughes movies include "Pretty in Pink", "Some Kind of Wonderful", "The Breakfast Club". "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" is in the same vein as John Hughes flicks are (i.e. the dork scoring the hot girl). You want a movie that shows what happens to the dork when he tries to get the hot girl? Watch "The Last American Virigin." Dork tries to score with hot girl. Dork strikes out. Hot girl hooks up with hot guy, gets pregnant and hot guy skips out on her. Dork cashes out his savings to pay for hot girl's abortion and takes care of her afterwards, thinking she's now his girlfriend. After buying hot girl an expensive necklace, dork finds hot girl making out with hot guy she had hooked up with before, and dork drives off crying, roll credits. Dorks like Cody will only get used by hot girls for free dinners and favours but won't get anywhere romantically with them because they do not have what it takes to score the girl. Also most guys don't understand this: Women are the ones who pick and choose their mates. The guys have to put themselves out and risk rejection, but the guys do not get to pick and choose. The women choose their mates. Gwens ACTIONS in the show have made it clear that she doesn't like Cody that way, She said she'd never go out with him ever. She whacked him in the crotch with a paddle. She didn't give a crap when he got mauled by the bear. She gave him her bra out of PITY because he arranged for her to canoe back with Trent, but that's all it was--pity and paying off a favour so he couldn't expect something from her later. Gwen's actions show that she chose Trent pure and simple. Even after breaking up with Trent, there's nothing in there with her saying or thinking "Maybe I should give Cody a shot now." because women don't typically do that. |
It's not stereotyping, it's observation of consistent human behaviour. Pyschologists even published the results of study and evaluation showing how women end up ruling out nice guys who are too available and too compliant with what they want. Anthropologists have studied human behaviour and the behaviour of primates that show that women choose their mates and if a male is not chosen, he usually doesn't get a shot with that female, and that is in the majority of cases. If you were to survey women honestly about how they have or would respond to a shorter guy that kept on sniffing her, throwing himself at her etc. and showing her unwanted romantic intentions, the response is not "Oh I'd fall in love with him" instead it's "That is creepy, get him away from me, I'm getting a restraining order, that is annoying, etc." There may be exceptions but those exceptions are about as likely as your being able to fill the state of Texas waist deep with loonies, marking one with a red X, dropping a blindfolded person into it have him select one loonie and he selects the one that has the X on it!
I'm done with this topic.
| HankL wrote: |
It's not stereotyping, it's observation of consistent human behaviour. Pyschologists even published the results of study and evaluation showing how women end up ruling out nice guys who are too available and too compliant with what they want. Anthropologists have studied human behaviour and the behaviour of primates that show that women choose their mates and if a male is not chosen, he usually doesn't get a shot with that female, and that is in the majority of cases. If you were to survey women honestly about how they have or would respond to a shorter guy that kept on sniffing her, throwing himself at her etc. and showing her unwanted romantic intentions, the response is not "Oh I'd fall in love with him" instead it's "That is creepy, get him away from me, I'm getting a restraining order, that is annoying, etc." There may be exceptions but those exceptions are about as likely as your being able to fill the state of Texas waist deep with loonies, marking one with a red X, dropping a blindfolded person into it have him select one loonie and he selects the one that has the X on it! I'm done with this topic. |
| HankL wrote: |
It's not stereotyping, it's observation of consistent human behaviour. Pyschologists even published the results of study and evaluation showing how women end up ruling out nice guys who are too available and too compliant with what they want. Anthropologists have studied human behaviour and the behaviour of primates that show that women choose their mates and if a male is not chosen, he usually doesn't get a shot with that female, and that is in the majority of cases. If you were to survey women honestly about how they have or would respond to a shorter guy that kept on sniffing her, throwing himself at her etc. and showing her unwanted romantic intentions, the response is not "Oh I'd fall in love with him" instead it's "That is creepy, get him away from me, I'm getting a restraining order, that is annoying, etc." There may be exceptions but those exceptions are about as likely as your being able to fill the state of Texas waist deep with loonies, marking one with a red X, dropping a blindfolded person into it have him select one loonie and he selects the one that has the X on it! I'm done with this topic. |
In all of your arguments, you've forgotten one very, very important piece of information:
it's a TV show, so people don't behave like they would in real life.
| HankL wrote: |
| John Hughes movies include "Pretty in Pink", "Some Kind of Wonderful", "The Breakfast Club". "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" is in the same vein as John Hughes flicks are (i.e. the dork scoring the hot girl). |
You're wrong about the John Hughes movies. The dork doesn't get the hot girl he's been chasing in them. Ever. In Pretty in Pink, Molly Ringwald's Andie picks the popular guy played by Andrew McCarthy instead of her overeager friend played by John Cryer. The dorky Ducky takes her to the dance, the guy she likes finally tells off his rich friends, and Ducky encourages her to be with the man she really wants. While there was originally a Duckie/Andie ending, test audiences hated it, and the ill-fitting ending was thankfully changed to the more bittersweet ending we all know. Ducky gets the eye from a young Kristie Swanson at the end, but he fails utterly with his dream girl. In the Breakfast Club the dorky character writes the group essay alone while the two girls hook up with the jock and the badboy respectively. In Sixteen Candles (the movie where the Cody getting Gwen's bra bit is lifted from) the dorky guy still doesn't get his dream girl and instead helps her hook up with her dream guy... again. The chick he ends up potentially with is Jake's annoying lush of an ex-girlfriend who only hooked up with him while drunk. She was NOT the girl he'd pursued throughout the film, and that's the key point. In Some Kind of Wonderful the main guy isn't really a dork character (he's the male equivalent to Molly Ringwold in Pretty in Pink), so he has a shot at the hot dream girl but instead chooses his female best friend. The only hot girls a dorky guy has a chance with in a John Hughes film are the ones he doesn't notice and who pursue him instead.
The reason that Cody will never get Gwen is precisely because their relationship follows a John Hughes movie.
| Atomius1 wrote: |
| Having said that i think it's still unfair on Cody who is obviously more in love with Gwen than Trent who could fall for any girl and whose feelings appear entirely primitive and he only makes them SEEM intelligent by poeticizing them. |
Trent was willing to give up a million dollars because he considers Gwen more important to him. He didn't poeticize those feelings. He acted on them. So I fail to see how Cody is "obviously more in love with Gwen". Both guys love her and were willing to sacrifice their own happiness for hers.
As Trent is the more social adept of the two guys, I also disagree about how well they balance her antisocial side. Cody wasn't able to break through Gwen's antisocial defenses, but Trent consistantly gets her to talk and open up. Like when they talked throughout the entire awake-a-thon or when he got her to laugh at the end of the first season.
