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Nickelodeon (ended 2008)

Why Azula loses fights - my theory

Azula is:

  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [1]Aug 21, 2008
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    I first developed this theory and made a thread about it several months before the finale. After watching the finale, I feel that it has been more or less confirmed. It basically concerns a common pattern that I believe lies behind all of Azula's non-victories, at least as far as combat is concerned.

    I've been re-watching Avatar, and I've noticed something about Azula, or, more specifically, about the fights she's in, and how her enemies somehow manage to keep surviving her. Every time she has outmaneuvered and/or beaten her opponents, has them at her mercy, and is able to move in for the kill, she always hesitates for some reason, holding back to savor her triumph, and her enemies take adavtage of this, and Azula either does not achieve her goal, or comes off worse in the fight. Every single Azula fight in the series where she hasn't won has ended this way. There were only two exceptions: Return to Omashu, and The Southern Raiders. Here are some examples:

    - In The Avatar State, Azula easily defeats Zuko. But after she has knocked him out, instead of shooting a quick fireball at him and killing him, she takes her time generating a gigantic lightning bolt, no doubt wishing to show off her new skills. Iroh then appears and kicks her off the boat.

    - After defeating Aang and Zuko in The Chase, Azula had a moment when she could easily have killed Aang, who was trapped under a pile of burning wood. Instead, she simply stood there smiling, probable thinking about the best way to torture him to death. Suddenly, Katara, Sokka, Toph, and Iroh had all appeared out of nowhere, Zuko had woken up, and she was forced to flee. She did pretty much the same thing in The Drill after she had defeated Aang, and in the moment she hesitated, Aang woke up and was able to continue the fight.

    - When capturing Zuko and Iroh in The Crossroads of Destiny, the smart thing for Azula to do would have been to get the Dai Lee to simply collapse the walls of the tea room and bring the roof down on them, or at least get the Dai Lee to do it without her. Instead, unable to resist the urge to show off, she walked in and revealed herself, and as a result Iroh escaped and almost ruined everything for her by fetching Aang, Sokka, and Toph.

    - After her victory in The Day of Black Sun, Azula didn't bother to have anyone try to follow Appa. Even though one of the war balloons wouldn't have been able to catch up with Appa, an attempt at pursuit would probably have caught Zuko, and eventually have lead to the Western Air Temple. Instead, Zuko was able to meet up with the Aang and become his firebending master, which of course wouldultimately lose the Fire nation the war.

    - She does it again in the final fight of The Boiling Rock; Part 2. Once she had safely flown to another cable car, the smart thing for Azula to do would have been to shoot a lightning bolt at the other cable car, ending the fight. Instead, wanting to watch it fall into the lake and listen to Zuko's screams as he was boiled to death, she was content to wait for the guards to cut the line, and by the time she realised that Mai had betrayed her and stopped them, it was out of range and the gaang were able to escape.

    - The writers continue this in the finale, with the way Azula is finally brought down After she has beaten Zuko (come on, admit it - Zuko got pwned once again), Azula chases Katara around and eventually manages to corner her. Azula could easily have killed Katara at this point. The drain that Katara was hoping Azula would step on was still several meters in front of her, Katara was directly ahead, with no defence against the fire blasts Azula could have summoned up with Sozin's comet overhead - basically as good as dead. And yet Azula did not fire. Instead she fired off a couple of final insults, had a brief staring competition with her, and then walked towards her over the drain, and was consequently frozen and chained up

    There are several possible explanations for this apparent weakness in Azula's fighting. The first, and most obvious, is that it was simply a writing tool; obviously Azula couldn't kill her enemies, or the story would be over. Cue the deus ex machina. However, I don't think that this is very likely. If all that was motivating the writers was the need to keep Azula's enemies alive, they would have varied from the formula of having Azula's enemies at her mercy, having her hesitate, and then having said enemies take advantage of this and escape/win. At times, it borders on the blatantly obvious: the manner in which Aang escaped her in "The Chase" and "The Drill" was so bizarrely similar, that it was this that first lead me to my suspicion that there was a pattern behind Azula's defeats. This would imply that the writers wanted to develop this as an established weakness of Azula's - setting a precedent, if you will, for how the epitome of perfection is eventually defeated. The outcome of the Agni Kai in the finale was what clinched this theory for me: AKA; Azula having Katara at more or less point blank range, and yet still insisting on drawing out the kill. Granted, she was not herself at the time - the Azula we all know and love would never have been caught dead standing around monologuing when she had a perfect opportunity to finish off her foe. But still, it fits with the above mentioned examples.

    Discuss this theory, and add to or disagree with it if you wish.

    EDIT: I do not have a theory behind the exact reasoning for Azula's frequent willingness to hold back. Sometimes it seems to be because she wants to show off (The Avatar State). Sometimes it seems to be because she is supremely confident (DoBS). Perhaps there is a deeper meaning. That is what I am hoping people will discuss.

    Edited on 08/21/2008 9:28pm
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  • Avatar of PsychoPass

    PsychoPass

    [2]Aug 21, 2008
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    I read (all :p) of it. Unfortunately, I cannot fully reply to it right now. I have a question though. What exactly is your theory in regards to her weakness in the aforementioned fights?
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    Bluefiremaster

    [3]Aug 21, 2008
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    i think that the reason Azula loses in not because she holds back, it's because people always arive as shes about to finish the job. she only had her fingers up in the chase for a second, but strangly katara showed up in that second. i think it had more to do with the other persons luck cause azula could have easily kicked everyone's butts without trying. i think her only real opponent was katara
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [4]Aug 21, 2008
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    PsychoPass wrote:
    I read (all :p) of it. Unfortunately, I cannot fully reply to it right now. I have a question though. What exactly is your theory in regards to her weakness in the aforementioned fights?

    Quite simply that for some reason she always hesitates before the kill. I have no idea why she does so - it could be for a variety of reasons. I'm hoping that something may emerge from discussion of it.

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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [5]Aug 21, 2008
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    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    i think that the reason Azula loses in not because she holds back, it's because people always arive as shes about to finish the job. she only had her fingers up in the chase for a second, but strangly katara showed up in that second. i think it had more to do with the other persons luck cause azula could have easily kicked everyone's butts without trying. i think her only real opponent was katara

    If you think that Azula doesn't hold back from finishing her opponents off, you really need to watch "The Avatar State", "The Chase" and "The Drill" again. Those are the obvious ones, but it is present in all of her fights, to a certain extent.

    With most of them, it seems that she is simply holding out to make it a very flashy death (AKA "The Avatar State"). But with others, it is not so concrete.

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  • Avatar of Jackson5050

    Jackson5050

    [6]Aug 21, 2008
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    I see what Ax is saying and I agree with it. Azula's hubris is so great that she has to rub her victory in the face of her foe. A simple victory will not do.
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [7]Aug 21, 2008
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    Okay, I added what I am hoping people will discuss in this thread at the end: what is the cause of Azula's need to stretch out her kills?
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    MaddoKos

    [8]Aug 22, 2008
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    She likes to savor the victory probably. She enjoys the feeling of being in control and drags it out. Like a kid pulling the wings off a fly.
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    IrohtheTea

    [9]Aug 22, 2008
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    who doesnt want to gloat infront of a person you have beaten?

    its just a show off. that will be only ONE flaw of azula.

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    PsychoPass

    [10]Aug 22, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:

    I first developed this theory and made a thread about it several months before the finale. After watching the finale, I feel that it has been more or less confirmed. It basically concerns a common pattern that I believe lies behind all of Azula's non-victories, at least as far as combat is concerned.

    I've been re-watching Avatar, and I've noticed something about Azula, or, more specifically, about the fights she's in, and how her enemies somehow manage to keep surviving her. Every time she has outmaneuvered and/or beaten her opponents, has them at her mercy, and is able to move in for the kill, she always hesitates for some reason, holding back to savor her triumph, and her enemies take adavtage of this, and Azula either does not achieve her goal, or comes off worse in the fight. Every single Azula fight in the series where she hasn't won has ended this way. There were only two exceptions: Return to Omashu, and The Southern Raiders. Here are some examples:

    - In The Avatar State, Azula easily defeats Zuko. But after she has knocked him out, instead of shooting a quick fireball at him and killing him, she takes her time generating a gigantic lightning bolt, no doubt wishing to show off her new skills. Iroh then appears and kicks her off the boat.

    You must remember though that Azula is precise, not wild and violent (at this point in the story ;p). Using lightning to kill Zuko not only follows her personal philosophy of precision and coldbloodedness but is also an actual "one hit kill" move. Yes, she could shoot a fireball at him and while that would severely injure him (unless the salvo was continued) but lightning is a guaranteed kill that. One could look at it this way. Fire is for fighting, lightning is for killing, if that makes sense.

    - After defeating Aang and Zuko in The Chase, Azula had a moment when she could easily have killed Aang, who was trapped under a pile of burning wood. Instead, she simply stood there smiling, probable thinking about the best way to torture him to death. Suddenly, Katara, Sokka, Toph, and Iroh had all appeared out of nowhere, Zuko had woken up, and she was forced to flee. She did pretty much the same thing in The Drill after she had defeated Aang, and in the moment she hesitated, Aang woke up and was able to continue the fight.

    She did stand there smiling but not because she was thinking of torturing him (even though that's easy to believe). I have no doubt in my mind that she was savoring the moment of seeing the Avatar trapped and at her mercy. Once again, we see her getting her fingers ready for lightning. Once again, wildy shooting fire at him for the kill is not her and while she could have done that, she was still enjoying her victory. She was a couple of seconds away from victory but the bad timing of the arrival of all of her enemies at once is what defeated her. Same goes for The Drill. She saw that he was down, despite being ready to attack, but wanted to enjoy it rather than just fire away.

    - When capturing Zuko and Iroh in The Crossroads of Destiny, the smart thing for Azula to do would have been to get the Dai Lee to simply collapse the walls of the tea room and bring the roof down on them, or at least get the Dai Lee to do it without her. Instead, unable to resist the urge to show off, she walked in and revealed herself, and as a result Iroh escaped and almost ruined everything for her by fetching Aang, Sokka, and Toph.

    She revealed herself because she believed she had them surrounded, captured and that was apparently her objective at that point. Like earlier too, she was being smug about it all. Besides, it turns out Zuko was in her plans afterall.

    - After her victory in The Day of Black Sun, Azula didn't bother to have anyone try to follow Appa. Even though one of the war balloons wouldn't have been able to catch up with Appa, an attempt at pursuit would probably have caught Zuko, and eventually have lead to the Western Air Temple. Instead, Zuko was able to meet up with the Aang and become his firebending master, which of course wouldultimately lose the Fire nation the war.

    It followed her philosophy. Why chase them down (when they are faster) when you know they'll come to you? Rather than go on a wild goose chase, she was most likely going to patiently wait it out until they returned.

    - She does it again in the final fight of The Boiling Rock; Part 2. Once she had safely flown to another cable car, the smart thing for Azula to do would have been to shoot a lightning bolt at the other cable car, ending the fight. Instead, wanting to watch it fall into the lake and listen to Zuko's screams as he was boiled to death, she was content to wait for the guards to cut the line, and by the time she realised that Mai had betrayed her and stopped them, it was out of range and the gaang were able to escape.

    It's basically the same situation as The Drill and The Chase. She doesn't just wildy launch attacks for the sake of destroying. Again, she wanted to enjoy the sight, watching Zuko fall finally fall to his death.

    - The writers continue this in the finale, with the way Azula is finally brought down After she has beaten Zuko (come on, admit it - Zuko got pwned once again), Azula chases Katara around and eventually manages to corner her. Azula could easily have killed Katara at this point. The drain that Katara was hoping Azula would step on was still several meters in front of her, Katara was directly ahead, with no defence against the fire blasts Azula could have summoned up with Sozin's comet overhead - basically as good as dead. And yet Azula did not fire. Instead she fired off a couple of final insults, had a brief staring competition with her, and then walked towards her over the drain, and was consequently frozen and chained up.

    Yeah, with the power of the comet she could have easily just vaporized her from afar. Even sane Azula would have done that. :p That had to be the mania talking but she still probably wanted to kill Katara up close to enjoy it... Especially if one is manic. Wether or not that was Katara playing on her weakness (Azula coming after her rather than just shooting her from afar) or was simply chance that Azula walked over the grate, I don't know. But what is certain though is that her mental state was affecting her in that fight, primarily her mania.

    There are several possible explanations for this apparent weakness in Azula's fighting. The first, and most obvious, is that it was simply a writing tool; obviously Azula couldn't kill her enemies, or the story would be over. Cue the deus ex machina. However, I don't think that this is very likely. If all that was motivating the writers was the need to keep Azula's enemies alive, they would have varied from the formula of having Azula's enemies at her mercy, having her hesitate, and then having said enemies take advantage of this and escape/win. At times, it borders on the blatantly obvious: the manner in which Aang escaped her in "The Chase" and "The Drill" was so bizarrely similar, that it was this that first lead me to my suspicion that there was a pattern behind Azula's defeats. This would imply that the writers wanted to develop this as an established weakness of Azula's - setting a precedent, if you will, for how the epitome of perfection is eventually defeated. The outcome of the Agni Kai in the finale was what clinched this theory for me: AKA; Azula having Katara at more or less point blank range, and yet still insisting on drawing out the kill. Granted, she was not herself at the time - the Azula we all know and love would never have been caught dead standing around monologuing when she had a perfect opportunity to finish off her foe. But still, it fits with the above mentioned examples.

    I will agree with you on that again. The smart thing for the sane Azula to do would have been to attack her from afar but that wasn't the case due to her mental state. So, if you look at it like that, it renders the idea of her "weakness" being taking a moment to pride herself before the kill since if she was in a right state of mind she would hae gone all out on Katara anyway.

    Discuss this theory, and add to or disagree with it if you wish.

    EDIT: I do not have a theory behind the exact reasoning for Azula's frequent willingness to hold back. Sometimes it seems to be because she wants to show off (The Avatar State). Sometimes it seems to be because she is supremely confident (DoBS). Perhaps there is a deeper meaning. That is what I am hoping people will discuss.

    It's obiously a reoccuring trait she has but wether or not it was treated as a weakness... I'm not sure. Most all of those times though, she was on the brink of victory and through unforseen or unfavorable circumstances did she lose. It's not like she was caught monolouging or anything. :p I do agree though that if she had not puased to savor her victory, she'd have more wins than losses and her record. But for her to have done that would have required a rewrite of some of her charcater qualities, in my opinion. I.e. the pride, confidence, sadistic pleasure, etc. for simply all-out violence which would not have fit.

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    isabelwhatx

    [11]Aug 22, 2008
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    I agree with everything you've said. I picked up on some of those things. I'm rewatching Avatar as well. During some parts I almost went crazy because it was SO AGGRIVATING that Azula wouldn't just finish off her opponent. I think it's mainly because she enjoys people suffering. I mean, look what she did to Zuko in the third season. She lied to Ozai and didn't take the credit of killing the Avatar just to hurt Zuko even more. She's twisted. So, I think that she takes her time either watching someone struggle or finding a way for them to die painfully.
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    WiseLad

    [12]Aug 22, 2008
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    Azula is split between Id, Ego and super-Ego

    her Super-Ego is what causes her to try to savor the moments of triumph

    but as possibly shown in the "hairbrush" incident, there is deep inside her her Id, one that goes into her conscience and was voiced by "her mom" and sees the truth about herself, that she is cruel and should overcome it

    she would be much more powerful as a "good girl", because she will be going for "what is right" instead of satisfying herself
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    Bluefiremaster

    [13]Aug 23, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:

    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    i think that the reason Azula loses in not because she holds back, it's because people always arive as shes about to finish the job. she only had her fingers up in the chase for a second, but strangly katara showed up in that second. i think it had more to do with the other persons luck cause azula could have easily kicked everyone's butts without trying. i think her only real opponent was katara

    If you think that Azula doesn't hold back from finishing her opponents off, you really need to watch "The Avatar State", "The Chase" and "The Drill" again. Those are the obvious ones, but it is present in all of her fights, to a certain extent.

    With most of them, it seems that she is simply holding out to make it a very flashy death (AKA "The Avatar State"). But with others, it is not so concrete.

    ill admit she held back in the drill but she didnt hold back in the avatar state she just wouldnt settle for hurting zuko she wanted to kill him. in case u forgot she was in the process of shooting lightning wen iroh jumped in
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    Axrendale

    [14]Aug 23, 2008
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    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    i think that the reason Azula loses in not because she holds back, it's because people always arive as shes about to finish the job. she only had her fingers up in the chase for a second, but strangly katara showed up in that second. i think it had more to do with the other persons luck cause azula could have easily kicked everyone's butts without trying. i think her only real opponent was katara

    If you think that Azula doesn't hold back from finishing her opponents off, you really need to watch "The Avatar State", "The Chase" and "The Drill" again. Those are the obvious ones, but it is present in all of her fights, to a certain extent.

    With most of them, it seems that she is simply holding out to make it a very flashy death (AKA "The Avatar State"). But with others, it is not so concrete.

    ill admit she held back in the drill but she didnt hold back in the avatar state she just wouldnt settle for hurting zuko she wanted to kill him. in case u forgot she was in the process of shooting lightning wen iroh jumped in

    But she didn't have to use lightning. She can create fireballs instantly that are capable of blowing holes in rocks. One of those to the head and Zuko would have been a goner. Instead, she spent time gathering up a lightning bolt so big it would have torn the ship in two if she had launched it at Zuko. Overkill much?

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    Bluefiremaster

    [15]Aug 23, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    i think that the reason Azula loses in not because she holds back, it's because people always arive as shes about to finish the job. she only had her fingers up in the chase for a second, but strangly katara showed up in that second. i think it had more to do with the other persons luck cause azula could have easily kicked everyone's butts without trying. i think her only real opponent was katara

    If you think that Azula doesn't hold back from finishing her opponents off, you really need to watch "The Avatar State", "The Chase" and "The Drill" again. Those are the obvious ones, but it is present in all of her fights, to a certain extent.

    With most of them, it seems that she is simply holding out to make it a very flashy death (AKA "The Avatar State"). But with others, it is not so concrete.

    ill admit she held back in the drill but she didnt hold back in the avatar state she just wouldnt settle for hurting zuko she wanted to kill him. in case u forgot she was in the process of shooting lightning wen iroh jumped in

    But she didn't have to use lightning. She can create fireballs instantly that are capable of blowing holes in rocks. One of those to the head and Zuko would have been a goner. Instead, she spent time gathering up a lightning bolt so big it would have torn the ship in two if she had launched it at Zuko. Overkill much?

    but she wanted to make sure she got the job done. zuko could stop a fireball but not lightning at that time
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  • Avatar of Axrendale

    Axrendale

    [16]Aug 23, 2008
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    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:
    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    Axrendale wrote:

    Bluefiremaster wrote:
    i think that the reason Azula loses in not because she holds back, it's because people always arive as shes about to finish the job. she only had her fingers up in the chase for a second, but strangly katara showed up in that second. i think it had more to do with the other persons luck cause azula could have easily kicked everyone's butts without trying. i think her only real opponent was katara

    If you think that Azula doesn't hold back from finishing her opponents off, you really need to watch "The Avatar State", "The Chase" and "The Drill" again. Those are the obvious ones, but it is present in all of her fights, to a certain extent.

    With most of them, it seems that she is simply holding out to make it a very flashy death (AKA "The Avatar State"). But with others, it is not so concrete.

    ill admit she held back in the drill but she didnt hold back in the avatar state she just wouldnt settle for hurting zuko she wanted to kill him. in case u forgot she was in the process of shooting lightning wen iroh jumped in

    But she didn't have to use lightning. She can create fireballs instantly that are capable of blowing holes in rocks. One of those to the head and Zuko would have been a goner. Instead, she spent time gathering up a lightning bolt so big it would have torn the ship in two if she had launched it at Zuko. Overkill much?

    but she wanted to make sure she got the job done. zuko could stop a fireball but not lightning at that time

    At the time Zuko could barely stand, let alone block a fireball. Heck, even when he was at his best in the first half of Season two he still couldn't stop Azula's blasts. Azula could easily have killed him in that instant if she chose to.

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    Axrendale

    [17]Aug 23, 2008
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    Bluefiremaster, would you like to join the Fire nation on the RPG thread? We have Azula
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    isabelwhatx

    [18]Aug 23, 2008
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    Lmao, Axrendale, you are desperate for participants. I'm sure that after they see the rapid growth of our thread they'll come to us.
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    Bluefiremaster

    [19]Aug 23, 2008
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    Axrendale wrote:
    Bluefiremaster, would you like to join the Fire nation on the RPG thread? We have Azula
    i would love to. i support the fire nation greatly, but i want to be on the high ranks. a royal ranker personaly
    Edited on 08/23/2008 8:58pm
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    BradyTheRandom

    [20]Aug 23, 2008
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    Interesting concept.

    Then again, to counter your Boiling Rock theory, if she had shot lightning at the gondola, Zuko would've simply redirected it.

    Azula would've known about Zuko's redirection powers from what Ozai told her about his epic pwnage by Zuko.

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