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  • Avatar of Kilotzack

    Kilotzack

    [481]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 11/09/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 910
    Teranef wrote:
    Kilotzack wrote:
    Teranef wrote:

    For the record, owls are one of the least intelligent of birds, crows however can be on par with great apes in some studies . . .

    No offense to people who like owls, I think they're awesome . . . just . . . not very smart

    I don't mean tonitpick, I just wanted to throw itout there. I know it makes no difference or anything

    Well, owls are a symbol of wisdom.. And being smart or being wise are two very different things.. But even if owls are neither of those, the still symbolise wisdom, and therefore we are the OWLs. I believe there are more animal's like this, for example: the rabbit for speed or swiftness the horse for bravery the lion for power the fox for cunning ..I'm not sure they are all correct but that's how I remember them
    Hmm, you know? I am going to ramble on into irrelavency now . . . I just feel like it. (I just want you to know that i'm not trying to point out "better" animals to be named after in this post, just derailing my train of thought)

    You know? Now that you mention the wisdom-intelligence difference, I was thinking . . . there have been lots of studies about intelligent animals but no studies about which animal is the wisest. Wisdom is vague and poorly defined . . . I mean, you know it when you see it . . . but when sat down and asked to define it, it's hard. I wonder what the wisest animal in the world is. I think it'd be a social animal, and my vote would go to the elephant. I looked up "wise" and "wisdom" in a few dictionaries and it seemed to basically be using knowledge and life experience to make good judgements and sensible decisions based on deep understanding and insight. As far as i'm concerned, "wisdom" is just "intelligence" applied to life situations rather then short-term, practical, problem solving tasks. Wisdom is harder to pin down then intelligence as far as animal observation goes. I think the simplest way to describe it would be . . . insight/good judgement. That's easier to define. Crows are the first animals I can think of who demonstrate such examples (only because i've been recently looking up crow intelligence on wikipedia). Rather then dive into a situation and make mistakes until they get something right, they will stand back and think though the best ways to accomplish something. Also, if a crow has a history of theivery (and I can't imagine a crow that doesn't . . . those mischievious little guys) they will use their experience as theives to predict what another theif might do and therefore, knowing the tricks of the trade, avoid being stolen from themselves (for example, changing hiding places of food regularly). Now elephants . . . elephant matriarchs, those who lead the heard, ElephantsRELY on the life experience to survive; finding food, finding ancient waterholes during drought, etc. Alpha wolves may also need wisdom. I imagine cats would need a bit of wisdom to be so elusive. Heck . . . there seems to be bits of wisdom scattered throughout all the animal kingdom; wisdom in the everlasting patience that a python waits in one spot waiting for prey (up to 6 months), wisdom in thepersistence of many animals in finding food or building a home despite countless failures, wisdom in co-operation of social animals. Of course it could be argued that in these examples the animals have no choice and that they don't know any better. If one were to try to answer the question of what is truly the wisest animal, i'd start looking at the most intelligent animals; elephants, great apes, cetaceans, parrots, crows & ravens, etc. I'd especially look at animals that look to leaders of their group and depend notably on life experience.

    My train of thought sure knows how to take a ride off the beaten track, eh?


    I actually read the entire thing, and I'd like to say that you really did your homework! lol
    Anyway, your definition of wisdom is alright.. Insight and understanding would be a nice way to describe it. But also, consciousness, awareness. You can see how intelligent animals are by testing them on intelligence required surroundings. But can you test their wisdom? Do animals even posess wisdom? I mean, as far as I know, the human being is the only one capable of understanding and consciousness.. Are we not the only race which can go against our nature? Are we not the onyl beings with choices, and thus responsability?
    How can you call an elephant or a crow wise, when his surrounding simply forces him to do the things he does?
    A crow might be more intelligent than a crab for instance, but that may be because more intelligence is required for the crow's way of living. It doesn't make either of them wiser than the other. It's like you said yourself, the elephant relies on the life experience. But it doesn't make it a wise creature. Just a creature who's been forced to live the way it does now to survive. That way, an elephant which manages to live in Africa, isn't necessarily wiser than a musquito which manages to live in Europe.. I believe animals are not capable of wisdom.
    No, wisdom can only be compared if it's about two human beings. And even then would it be hard, for how can you find out how wise someone is? Can you read peoples minds? It would be very hard, because maybe it's wiser to not act wise, if you know what I mean.. So how would you recognize a wise person if it's a wise thing to not act wise?

    Socrates once said: "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
    This was a response to all the people in his time claiming to know all the answers.. Socrates meant to say that the only thing he can be sure of, is that he can't be sure of anything. And by knowing that, he at least knew one thing for sure, which was already more than anyone else, because they all thought they knew much.
    Anyway, What I mean to say is that wisdom is hard to be measured and recognized. And if any animal contains wisdom, I believe we will never be able to find out, for animals can't communicate with us.
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  • Avatar of tomtitan

    tomtitan

    [482]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 03/01/07
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 10,891
    Kilotzack wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    Kilotzack wrote:
    Teranef wrote:

    For the record, owls are one of the least intelligent of birds, crows however can be on par with great apes in some studies . . .

    No offense to people who like owls, I think they're awesome . . . just . . . not very smart

    I don't mean tonitpick, I just wanted to throw itout there. I know it makes no difference or anything

    Well, owls are a symbol of wisdom.. And being smart or being wise are two very different things.. But even if owls are neither of those, the still symbolise wisdom, and therefore we are the OWLs. I believe there are more animal's like this, for example: the rabbit for speed or swiftness the horse for bravery the lion for power the fox for cunning ..I'm not sure they are all correct but that's how I remember them
    Hmm, you know? I am going to ramble on into irrelavency now . . . I just feel like it. (I just want you to know that i'm not trying to point out "better" animals to be named after in this post, just derailing my train of thought)

    You know? Now that you mention the wisdom-intelligence difference, I was thinking . . . there have been lots of studies about intelligent animals but no studies about which animal is the wisest. Wisdom is vague and poorly defined . . . I mean, you know it when you see it . . . but when sat down and asked to define it, it's hard. I wonder what the wisest animal in the world is. I think it'd be a social animal, and my vote would go to the elephant. I looked up "wise" and "wisdom" in a few dictionaries and it seemed to basically be using knowledge and life experience to make good judgements and sensible decisions based on deep understanding and insight. As far as i'm concerned, "wisdom" is just "intelligence" applied to life situations rather then short-term, practical, problem solving tasks. Wisdom is harder to pin down then intelligence as far as animal observation goes. I think the simplest way to describe it would be . . . insight/good judgement. That's easier to define. Crows are the first animals I can think of who demonstrate such examples (only because i've been recently looking up crow intelligence on wikipedia). Rather then dive into a situation and make mistakes until they get something right, they will stand back and think though the best ways to accomplish something. Also, if a crow has a history of theivery (and I can't imagine a crow that doesn't . . . those mischievious little guys) they will use their experience as theives to predict what another theif might do and therefore, knowing the tricks of the trade, avoid being stolen from themselves (for example, changing hiding places of food regularly). Now elephants . . . elephant matriarchs, those who lead the heard, ElephantsRELY on the life experience to survive; finding food, finding ancient waterholes during drought, etc. Alpha wolves may also need wisdom. I imagine cats would need a bit of wisdom to be so elusive. Heck . . . there seems to be bits of wisdom scattered throughout all the animal kingdom; wisdom in the everlasting patience that a python waits in one spot waiting for prey (up to 6 months), wisdom in thepersistence of many animals in finding food or building a home despite countless failures, wisdom in co-operation of social animals. Of course it could be argued that in these examples the animals have no choice and that they don't know any better. If one were to try to answer the question of what is truly the wisest animal, i'd start looking at the most intelligent animals; elephants, great apes, cetaceans, parrots, crows & ravens, etc. I'd especially look at animals that look to leaders of their group and depend notably on life experience.

    My train of thought sure knows how to take a ride off the beaten track, eh?


    I actually read the entire thing, and I'd like to say that you really did your homework! lol
    Anyway, your definition of wisdom is alright.. Insight and understanding would be a nice way to describe it. But also, consciousness, awareness. You can see how intelligent animals are by testing them on intelligence required surroundings. But can you test their wisdom? Do animals even posess wisdom? I mean, as far as I know, the human being is the only one capable of understanding and consciousness.. Are we not the only race which can go against our nature? Are we not the onyl beings with choices, and thus responsability?
    How can you call an elephant or a crow wise, when his surrounding simply forces him to do the things he does?
    A crow might be more intelligent than a crab for instance, but that may be because more intelligence is required for the crow's way of living. It doesn't make either of them wiser than the other. It's like you said yourself, the elephant relies on the life experience. But it doesn't make it a wise creature. Just a creature who's been forced to live the way it does now to survive. That way, an elephant which manages to live in Africa, isn't necessarily wiser than a musquito which manages to live in Europe.. I believe animals are not capable of wisdom.
    No, wisdom can only be compared if it's about two human beings. And even then would it be hard, for how can you find out how wise someone is? Can you read peoples minds? It would be very hard, because maybe it's wiser to not act wise, if you know what I mean.. So how would you recognize a wise person if it's a wise thing to not act wise?

    Socrates once said: "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
    This was a response to all the people in his time claiming to know all the answers.. Socrates meant to say that the only thing he can be sure of, is that he can't be sure of anything. And by knowing that, he at least knew one thing for sure, which was already more than anyone else, because they all thought they knew much.
    Anyway, What I mean to say is that wisdom is hard to be measured and recognized. And if any animal contains wisdom, I believe we will never be able to find out, for animals can't communicate with us.

    all this talk about human and animal wisdom has reminded me of a very interesting question i thought of a while ago.

    animals don't have conscious thought, therefore they don't make decisions, they just do what's best for their survival, since humans do have conscious thought, and we do make decisions, and they're sometimes bad (e.g. zuko in XRoD), does this mean animals are superior to us in decision making?

    well i could've explained the question and worded it a bit better but you get the idea.
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  • Avatar of Kilotzack

    Kilotzack

    [483]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 11/09/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 910
    tomtitan wrote:
    Kilotzack wrote:
    Teranef wrote:
    Kilotzack wrote:
    Teranef wrote:

    For the record, owls are one of the least intelligent of birds, crows however can be on par with great apes in some studies . . .

    No offense to people who like owls, I think they're awesome . . . just . . . not very smart

    I don't mean tonitpick, I just wanted to throw itout there. I know it makes no difference or anything

    Well, owls are a symbol of wisdom.. And being smart or being wise are two very different things.. But even if owls are neither of those, the still symbolise wisdom, and therefore we are the OWLs. I believe there are more animal's like this, for example: the rabbit for speed or swiftness the horse for bravery the lion for power the fox for cunning ..I'm not sure they are all correct but that's how I remember them
    Hmm, you know? I am going to ramble on into irrelavency now . . . I just feel like it. (I just want you to know that i'm not trying to point out "better" animals to be named after in this post, just derailing my train of thought)

    You know? Now that you mention the wisdom-intelligence difference, I was thinking . . . there have been lots of studies about intelligent animals but no studies about which animal is the wisest. Wisdom is vague and poorly defined . . . I mean, you know it when you see it . . . but when sat down and asked to define it, it's hard. I wonder what the wisest animal in the world is. I think it'd be a social animal, and my vote would go to the elephant. I looked up "wise" and "wisdom" in a few dictionaries and it seemed to basically be using knowledge and life experience to make good judgements and sensible decisions based on deep understanding and insight. As far as i'm concerned, "wisdom" is just "intelligence" applied to life situations rather then short-term, practical, problem solving tasks. Wisdom is harder to pin down then intelligence as far as animal observation goes. I think the simplest way to describe it would be . . . insight/good judgement. That's easier to define. Crows are the first animals I can think of who demonstrate such examples (only because i've been recently looking up crow intelligence on wikipedia). Rather then dive into a situation and make mistakes until they get something right, they will stand back and think though the best ways to accomplish something. Also, if a crow has a history of theivery (and I can't imagine a crow that doesn't . . . those mischievious little guys) they will use their experience as theives to predict what another theif might do and therefore, knowing the tricks of the trade, avoid being stolen from themselves (for example, changing hiding places of food regularly). Now elephants . . . elephant matriarchs, those who lead the heard, ElephantsRELY on the life experience to survive; finding food, finding ancient waterholes during drought, etc. Alpha wolves may also need wisdom. I imagine cats would need a bit of wisdom to be so elusive. Heck . . . there seems to be bits of wisdom scattered throughout all the animal kingdom; wisdom in the everlasting patience that a python waits in one spot waiting for prey (up to 6 months), wisdom in thepersistence of many animals in finding food or building a home despite countless failures, wisdom in co-operation of social animals. Of course it could be argued that in these examples the animals have no choice and that they don't know any better. If one were to try to answer the question of what is truly the wisest animal, i'd start looking at the most intelligent animals; elephants, great apes, cetaceans, parrots, crows & ravens, etc. I'd especially look at animals that look to leaders of their group and depend notably on life experience.

    My train of thought sure knows how to take a ride off the beaten track, eh?


    I actually read the entire thing, and I'd like to say that you really did your homework! lol
    Anyway, your definition of wisdom is alright.. Insight and understanding would be a nice way to describe it. But also, consciousness, awareness. You can see how intelligent animals are by testing them on intelligence required surroundings. But can you test their wisdom? Do animals even posess wisdom? I mean, as far as I know, the human being is the only one capable of understanding and consciousness.. Are we not the only race which can go against our nature? Are we not the onyl beings with choices, and thus responsability?
    How can you call an elephant or a crow wise, when his surrounding simply forces him to do the things he does?
    A crow might be more intelligent than a crab for instance, but that may be because more intelligence is required for the crow's way of living. It doesn't make either of them wiser than the other. It's like you said yourself, the elephant relies on the life experience. But it doesn't make it a wise creature. Just a creature who's been forced to live the way it does now to survive. That way, an elephant which manages to live in Africa, isn't necessarily wiser than a musquito which manages to live in Europe.. I believe animals are not capable of wisdom.
    No, wisdom can only be compared if it's about two human beings. And even then would it be hard, for how can you find out how wise someone is? Can you read peoples minds? It would be very hard, because maybe it's wiser to not act wise, if you know what I mean.. So how would you recognize a wise person if it's a wise thing to not act wise?

    Socrates once said: "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
    This was a response to all the people in his time claiming to know all the answers.. Socrates meant to say that the only thing he can be sure of, is that he can't be sure of anything. And by knowing that, he at least knew one thing for sure, which was already more than anyone else, because they all thought they knew much.
    Anyway, What I mean to say is that wisdom is hard to be measured and recognized. And if any animal contains wisdom, I believe we will never be able to find out, for animals can't communicate with us.

    all this talk about human and animal wisdom has reminded me of a very interesting question i thought of a while ago.

    animals don't have conscious thought, therefore they don't make decisions, they just do what's best for their survival, since humans do have conscious thought, and we do make decisions, and they're sometimes bad (e.g. zuko in XRoD), does this mean animals are superior to us in decision making?

    well i could've explained the question and worded it a bit better but you get the idea.

    No, animals are not superior in making decisions, for the don't make decisions. And human beings are just the only ones with choises, and the responsability that comes with it..

    But, ther eis a theory, which is not mine, that even ideas are like the evolution theory..
    in the meaning of, that good ideas will last and people will take over that idea.
    and bad ideas will not be followed and they will die.
    Put this in a long chain reaction, and there you have all today's ideas, choices, influences, opinions..
    A strange thought isn't it? the idea that all our idea's are not our idea's at all, but just idea's that survived and adapted to society..?
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  • Avatar of WiseLad

    WiseLad

    [484]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 09/02/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 4,435
    Kilotzack wrote:
    So how would you recognize a wise person if it's a wise thing to not act wise?

    Socrates once said: "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
    This was a response to all the people in his time claiming to know all the answers.. Socrates meant to say that the only thing he can be sure of, is that he can't be sure of anything. And by knowing that, he at least knew one thing for sure, which was already more than anyone else, because they all thought they knew much.
    Anyway, What I mean to say is that wisdom is hard to be measured and recognized. And if any animal contains wisdom, I believe we will never be able to find out, for animals can't communicate with us.


    I try to live by the standards of what Louis L'Amour wrote as what a character in one of his western books said:

    "I am just an ordinary man trying to lessen his ignorance"
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  • Avatar of Kilotzack

    Kilotzack

    [485]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 11/09/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 910
    WiseLad wrote:
    Kilotzack wrote:
    So how would you recognize a wise person if it's a wise thing to not act wise?

    Socrates once said: "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
    This was a response to all the people in his time claiming to know all the answers.. Socrates meant to say that the only thing he can be sure of, is that he can't be sure of anything. And by knowing that, he at least knew one thing for sure, which was already more than anyone else, because they all thought they knew much.
    Anyway, What I mean to say is that wisdom is hard to be measured and recognized. And if any animal contains wisdom, I believe we will never be able to find out, for animals can't communicate with us.


    I try to live by the standards of what Louis L'Amour wrote as what a character in one of his western books said:

    "I am just an ordinary man trying to lessen his ignorance"

    Well, in that case, you're not ordinary
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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [486]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 12/02/06
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 228

    Kilotzack wrote:
    But also, consciousness, awareness.
    What definition of consciousness and awareness? Elephants, dolphins, whales, and great apes can all recognize themselves in a mirror. That's self-awareness. And, well, every animal walking around is certainly not unconscious, so what are your definitions of these two things?
    Kilotzack wrote:
    You can see how intelligent animals are by testing them on intelligence required surroundings. But can you test their wisdom? Do animals even posess wisdom? I mean, as far as I know, the human being is the only one capable of understanding and consciousness.. Are we not the only race which can go against our nature?
    It could be argued that humans DON'T go against our nature. Do we? I could say that everything we do, it is in our nature for us to do. Name anything you believe is an example of humans going against their nature, and I could argue that it is IN our nature to do whatever action you describe. It is in our nature to follow every emotion that compels us to do something, these emotions include curiosity (even if you don't technically consider it an emotion) Humans are just responding to the stimuli of their environment the best way they know how, just as animals do.

    Now, in case by "nature" you meant biological desires, and "going against our nature" meant things like abstinence, fasting, celibacy, etc. . . . well, animals have done that when the need arose, especially in situations of altruism. They have given up food for one another, and gone hungry to stay at the side of a sick or injured group member. As for abstience, I've seen no evidence of that, to find that you'd have to know what's going on inside an animal's head. Although . . . would homosexuality count as going against our nature? 'cause if so, that's been scientifically documented in over 400 species.

    Kilotzack wrote:
    Are we not the onyl beings with choices, and thus responsability?
    I'd say the matriarch of an elephant heard and the leader of a wolf pack has choices to make and responsibilities to uphold; which direction to find food? Should we stop progress to allow an injured pack member to catch up with us? Should we attack this predator/competitor or retreat? Also, as mentioned, crows will think through an action, evaluating the best way to solve a problem. This requires making a decision.
    Kilotzack wrote:
    How can you call an elephant or a crow wise, when his surrounding simply forces him to do the things he does?
    Again, the same could be argued for humans. We humans make our decisions based on the situation we're in. It could be argued in that we don't really have choices. It could be argued, and it has been argued, that we do not even have free will. Every action we take, every decision we make, we were predisposed to making as determined by the situation we're in and the genetic make-up of our personality. Our actions are decided by our nature and our circumstances. We are only reacting to our environments and what our emotions and desires tell us to do.
    Kilotzack wrote:
    A crow might be more intelligent than a crab for instance, but that may be because more intelligence is required for the crow's way of living.
    That is equally true for humans. We are more intelligent then any crow, simply because we evolved more intelligence due to the situations we found ourselves in. We require more intelligence for our way of living. Even our cavemen ancestors required more intelligence. We are also more able to manipulate our surroundings. Our bone and hand structures allow us to throw things (such as spears) better then any other animal.

    My view is that emotional and cognitive functions came about in humans the same way any other trait did. They evolved over millions of years, that means our cousins in nature have at least a degree of everything we have. We were not magically gifted with our emotional and intellectual abilities in an abrupt breakthrough along our evolution. Just like the strength of any animal, our abilities existed to a small degree in our ancestors and became stronger and more prominent as time went on. Except for the tools we have constructed (some of which are trumped by certain animals abilities and others would be useless to most other species) there is nothing we have that another lucky or unlucky species does not have to some degree. This includes positive things like compassion for species other then our own, artistic impulse, imagination, and bad things, like rape, war, and unnecessary cruelty. All these things have been scientifically documented in other species.

    Kilotzack wrote:
    It doesn't make either of them wiser than the other. It's like you said yourself, the elephant relies on the life experience. But it doesn't make it a wise creature. Just a creature who's been forced to live the way it does now to survive.
    Humans also depend on their knowledge and life experience, and on very many occasions it could be said they are forced to live the way they do by their nature and their environment.
    Kilotzack wrote:
    I believe animals are not capable of wisdom.
    As a nod to Socrates, a more accurate belief would be that you simply do not know.
    Kilotzack wrote:
    No, wisdom can only be compared if it's about two human beings.
    You're not giving other species a chance to prove you otherwise then, if you define it as something that can only exist in humans (and I could easily argue that it does not even exist in humans). Why can it only be compared if it's about two human beings?
    Kilotzack wrote:
    And even then would it be hard, for how can you find out how wise someone is? Can you read peoples minds? It would be very hard, because maybe it's wiser to not act wise, if you know what I mean..
    Yeah, wisdom is one slippery fish to pin down . . . like gratitude. There are those that argue that humans do not experience true gratitude or compassion, for everything is done for the benefit of themselves.
    Kilotzack wrote:
    And if any animal contains wisdom, I believe we will never be able to find out, for animals can't communicate with us.
    I'd like to introduce you to Alex, an African Grey Parrot, and Washoe, a chimpanzee. Alex has been confirmed to understand 150 words and also concepts such as color, shape, and numerical values. He can carry on simple conversations, make requests for food and attention, and communicate to others his future actions (such as saying "I'm gonna go away now." before walking away). Washoe was taught American Sign Language and definitely understood it, for she in turn taught her child how to sign. She would convey her emotions, make requests for food & attention, and offer food to those who requested it, and comfort to those that were distressed. She could communicate simple concepts and exchange ideas with humans. This is true of other great apes who have been taught to sign including Kaanzi, another chimpanzee, and Koko, a gorilla. I even remember seeing a video in which one of these apes (forgot which) conveyed to her human researchers how she had been captured from the wild by humans. And even animals who've learned no human form of communication can communicate simple things with actions and body language. I don't know if any animal is able to look at a human and purposely give it advice on life in general though. The closest example I can think of is an incident in which a trainer signed that she had a stomach ache to the gorilla, Koko and Koko braught up orange juice, something she'd always received when feeling sick.

    Edited on 01/06/2008 8:46pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [487]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 12/02/06
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 228

    tomtitan wrote:
    they just do what's best for their survival,(e.g. zuko in XRoD),
    No, just the ones that live.

    Plenty of animals have been recorded doing things bad for their survival

    Tyranny: Leaders of social groups have abused and cruelly treated their group members to the point of being overthrown, beaten, demoted to the lowest rank, or outright banished. In one instance, a leader of a troop of macaques abused the young of the troop and abused his mates. The researchers following the troop found the troop leader one day beaten and bloody. It was speculated that the females could not take his abuse anymore and attacked him. The troop leader was reduced to low-man and a new troop leader was selected; the friend of the leader that came before the abusive one. I saw a documentary that showed the leader of a hyena clan who would starve her packmates, keeping most of the food for herself. One day, her pack mates all attacked her and she was mutilated, tail bitten off etc. She was eventually banished from the clan and its safe to assume she died.

    Intoxication: Humans are not alone in the act of drug use. Some individual bees will suck sap which contains some alcahol from certain trees and intoxicate themselves. When they return to the hive, they will not be allowed back in. Bees who repeatedly return to the hive intoxicated . . . will have their legs bitten off.

    Purposeful self-destruction: In captivity, animals have been known to suffer from a mental condition known as zoochosis in which they may engage in varous self destructive behaviors, ripping their fur out, biting themselves, picking at their flesh until they have open sores, one dolphin in an acquarium was even documented ramming itself into the cement wall in an apparent attempt to commit suicide.

    War: Fighting is a way of life (and death) for chimpanzees. Male chimps run in gangs. Within the gang, chimps co-operate but if a chimp from another gang comes into their territory, there will be trouble. Chimps go on border patrol; walking the perimeter of their territory to make sure no chimps are hunting on their land. Trespassers will be killed. Chimp gangs don't just chase rivals away. They kill them. This is war. Sometimes chimps get into full-fledged wars that last for years. Some scientists think a third of all male chimps are killed by other chimps.

    And to top it off:

    There's even a single, unique case of a duo of chimpanzee serial killers:

    In August of 1975, Gilka a chimpanzee mother was sitting with her infant when suddenly Passion, another mother appeared and chased her. Gilka ran screaming but Passion who was bigger and stronger caught up, attacked, seized, and killed the baby. She then proceeded to eat the flesh of the infant and share the gruesome remains with her adolescent daughter, Pom and her infant son, Prof. This was the first observed instance of cannibalistic behavior shown by Passion and Pom. About a year after this incident, Gilka gave birth to another infant and this time it was Pom who seized the baby, but Passion and Prof again shared the flesh. There is no explanation why Passion and Pom behaved as they did. Passion was always an asocial female, and had been a very harsh mother to her own first infant, Pom. It was only as Pom grew older that the very close bond developed between mother and daughter, and it was only because the two acted with such perfect co-operation that they were able to overcome some of the other females of their community. During the years of their rampaging, a total of ten infants died or disappeared and every instance point to Passion and Pom. They would never try to attack a female when there were any males around. Instead they would wait for the mother to be alone with her infant and gang up on her. In three years from 1974 to 1976 only a single infant in the Kasakela community had lived for more than one month. Finally, when Passion gave birth again to a third child, and Pom also gave birth, the extraordinary cannibalistic infant killing came to an end.

    Animals are more then capable of choosing paths that are bad for their survival . . . they just don't do it that often, natural selection makes sure of that.

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  • Avatar of Kilotzack

    Kilotzack

    [488]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 11/09/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 910
    Wow, I'm impressed Once again, I see that you have done your howework Right now i'm too tired and not focused enough to give your posts the reply it is definetely worth. I will reply to this as soon as possible, don't worry
    Owh and by the way, you should consider joining the OWL's, really
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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [489]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 12/02/06
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 228

    Kilotzack wrote:
    Wow, I'm impressed Once again, I see that you have done your howework Right now i'm too tired and not focused enough to give your posts the reply it is definetely worth. I will reply to this as soon as possible, don't worry Owh and by the way, you should consider joining the OWL's, really
    Isn't the OWL's something youhave to be nominated for by other posters, or do you have to run for it? Or areyou allowed to nominate yourself?Sorry, i'll have to re-read the original post'

    Anyway, I just returned the board now to give a few links that I meant to give in my last post but forgot to:

    News article about an experiment where chimpanzees beat college students in short-term memory: http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/chimps-outsmart-humans-in-tests/2007/12/04/1196530677057.html

    Video of above experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khe9bXT-OHE

    Wikipedia article for Alex the Parrot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_%28parrot%29

    Wikipedia article for the chimpanzee, Washoe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_%28chimpanzee%29

    Sorry, I don't know how to make the links clickable, could someone enlighten me?

    Edited on 01/06/2008 3:18pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of WiseLad

    WiseLad

    [490]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 09/02/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 4,435
    Teranef wrote:

    Kilotzack wrote:
    Wow, I'm impressed Once again, I see that you have done your howework Right now i'm too tired and not focused enough to give your posts the reply it is definetely worth. I will reply to this as soon as possible, don't worry Owh and by the way, you should consider joining the OWL's, really
    Isn't the OWL's something youhave to be nominated for by other posters, or do you have to run for it? Or areyou allowed to nominate yourself?Sorry, i'll have to re-read the original post'

    Anyway, I just returned the board now to give a few links that I meant to give in my last post but forgot to:

    News article about an experiment where chimpanzees beat college students in short-term memory: http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/chimps-outsmart-humans-in-tests/2007/12/04/1196530677057.html

    Video of above experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khe9bXT-OHE

    Wikipedia article for Alex the Parrot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_%28parrot%29

    Wikipedia article for the chimpanzee, Washoe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_%28chimpanzee%29

    Sorry, I don't know how to make the links clickable, could someone enlighten me?



    OWLS can be anyone who commits himself(or herself) to be a thoughtful poster

    the ones who are nominated are the Disciples of the Dragon
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  • Avatar of raienbrasa

    raienbrasa

    [491]Jan 6, 2008
    • member since: 10/30/06
    • level: 13
    • rank: Regal Beagle
    • posts: 3,377
    TLDR @ last page of posts.

    OWL also stands for Order of the White Lotus, lolwisdomwut.
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  • Avatar of tomtitan

    tomtitan

    [492]Jan 7, 2008
    • member since: 03/01/07
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 10,891
    Teranef wrote:

    tomtitan wrote:
    they just do what's best for their survival,(e.g. zuko in XRoD),
    No, just the ones that live.

    Plenty of animals have been recorded doing things bad for their survival

    Tyranny: Leaders of social groups have abused and cruelly treated their group members to the point of being overthrown, beaten, demoted to the lowest rank, or outright banished. In one instance, a leader of a troop of macaques abused the young of the troop and abused his mates. The researchers following the troop found the troop leader one day beaten and bloody. It was speculated that the females could not take his abuse anymore and attacked him. The troop leader was reduced to low-man and a new troop leader was selected; the friend of the leader that came before the abusive one. I saw a documentary that showed the leader of a hyena clan who would starve her packmates, keeping most of the food for herself. One day, her pack mates all attacked her and she was mutilated, tail bitten off etc. She was eventually banished from the clan and its safe to assume she died.

    Intoxication: Humans are not alone in the act of drug use. Some individual bees will suck sap which contains some alcahol from certain trees and intoxicate themselves. When they return to the hive, they will not be allowed back in. Bees who repeatedly return to the hive intoxicated . . . will have their legs bitten off.

    Purposeful self-destruction: In captivity, animals have been known to suffer from a mental condition known as zoochosis in which they may engage in varous self destructive behaviors, ripping their fur out, biting themselves, picking at their flesh until they have open sores, one dolphin in an acquarium was even documented ramming itself into the cement wall in an apparent attempt to commit suicide.

    War: Fighting is a way of life (and death) for chimpanzees. Male chimps run in gangs. Within the gang, chimps co-operate but if a chimp from another gang comes into their territory, there will be trouble. Chimps go on border patrol; walking the perimeter of their territory to make sure no chimps are hunting on their land. Trespassers will be killed. Chimp gangs don't just chase rivals away. They kill them. This is war. Sometimes chimps get into full-fledged wars that last for years. Some scientists think a third of all male chimps are killed by other chimps.

    And to top it off:

    There's even a single, unique case of a duo of chimpanzee serial killers:

    In August of 1975, Gilka a chimpanzee mother was sitting with her infant when suddenly Passion, another mother appeared and chased her. Gilka ran screaming but Passion who was bigger and stronger caught up, attacked, seized, and killed the baby. She then proceeded to eat the flesh of the infant and share the gruesome remains with her adolescent daughter, Pom and her infant son, Prof. This was the first observed instance of cannibalistic behavior shown by Passion and Pom. About a year after this incident, Gilka gave birth to another infant and this time it was Pom who seized the baby, but Passion and Prof again shared the flesh. There is no explanation why Passion and Pom behaved as they did. Passion was always an asocial female, and had been a very harsh mother to her own first infant, Pom. It was only as Pom grew older that the very close bond developed between mother and daughter, and it was only because the two acted with such perfect co-operation that they were able to overcome some of the other females of their community. During the years of their rampaging, a total of ten infants died or disappeared and every instance point to Passion and Pom. They would never try to attack a female when there were any males around. Instead they would wait for the mother to be alone with her infant and gang up on her. In three years from 1974 to 1976 only a single infant in the Kasakela community had lived for more than one month. Finally, when Passion gave birth again to a third child, and Pom also gave birth, the extraordinary cannibalistic infant killing came to an end.

    Animals are more then capable of choosing paths that are bad for their survival . . . they just don't do it that often, natural selection makes sure of that.


    wow awesome! about that bee thing, i definitely think a system like that should be applied to humans!
    and primates don't count because they're pretty close to humans on the intelligence scale.

    but with the hyena thing, those other hyenas were acting in a way that is good for their survival, if they allowed the leader to remain leader they would've suffered, similar thing with the bees, if they let the bee in he could've been harmful to the other bees.

    more good decision making in the animal kingdom.
    but the chimp serial killers was just weird.
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  • Avatar of Teranef

    Teranef

    [493]Jan 7, 2008
    • member since: 12/02/06
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 228
    tomtitan wrote:
    Teranef wrote:

    tomtitan wrote:
    they just do what's best for their survival,(e.g. zuko in XRoD),
    No, just the ones that live.

    Plenty of animals have been recorded doing things bad for their survival

    Tyranny: Leaders of social groups have abused and cruelly treated their group members to the point of being overthrown, beaten, demoted to the lowest rank, or outright banished. In one instance, a leader of a troop of macaques abused the young of the troop and abused his mates. The researchers following the troop found the troop leader one day beaten and bloody. It was speculated that the females could not take his abuse anymore and attacked him. The troop leader was reduced to low-man and a new troop leader was selected; the friend of the leader that came before the abusive one. I saw a documentary that showed the leader of a hyena clan who would starve her packmates, keeping most of the food for herself. One day, her pack mates all attacked her and she was mutilated, tail bitten off etc. She was eventually banished from the clan and its safe to assume she died.

    Intoxication: Humans are not alone in the act of drug use. Some individual bees will suck sap which contains some alcahol from certain trees and intoxicate themselves. When they return to the hive, they will not be allowed back in. Bees who repeatedly return to the hive intoxicated . . . will have their legs bitten off.

    Purposeful self-destruction: In captivity, animals have been known to suffer from a mental condition known as zoochosis in which they may engage in varous self destructive behaviors, ripping their fur out, biting themselves, picking at their flesh until they have open sores, one dolphin in an acquarium was even documented ramming itself into the cement wall in an apparent attempt to commit suicide.

    War: Fighting is a way of life (and death) for chimpanzees. Male chimps run in gangs. Within the gang, chimps co-operate but if a chimp from another gang comes into their territory, there will be trouble. Chimps go on border patrol; walking the perimeter of their territory to make sure no chimps are hunting on their land. Trespassers will be killed. Chimp gangs don't just chase rivals away. They kill them. This is war. Sometimes chimps get into full-fledged wars that last for years. Some scientists think a third of all male chimps are killed by other chimps.

    And to top it off:

    There's even a single, unique case of a duo of chimpanzee serial killers:

    In August of 1975, Gilka a chimpanzee mother was sitting with her infant when suddenly Passion, another mother appeared and chased her. Gilka ran screaming but Passion who was bigger and stronger caught up, attacked, seized, and killed the baby. She then proceeded to eat the flesh of the infant and share the gruesome remains with her adolescent daughter, Pom and her infant son, Prof. This was the first observed instance of cannibalistic behavior shown by Passion and Pom. About a year after this incident, Gilka gave birth to another infant and this time it was Pom who seized the baby, but Passion and Prof again shared the flesh. There is no explanation why Passion and Pom behaved as they did. Passion was always an asocial female, and had been a very harsh mother to her own first infant, Pom. It was only as Pom grew older that the very close bond developed between mother and daughter, and it was only because the two acted with such perfect co-operation that they were able to overcome some of the other females of their community. During the years of their rampaging, a total of ten infants died or disappeared and every instance point to Passion and Pom. They would never try to attack a female when there were any males around. Instead they would wait for the mother to be alone with her infant and gang up on her. In three years from 1974 to 1976 only a single infant in the Kasakela community had lived for more than one month. Finally, when Passion gave birth again to a third child, and Pom also gave birth, the extraordinary cannibalistic infant killing came to an end.

    Animals are more then capable of choosing paths that are bad for their survival . . . they just don't do it that often, natural selection makes sure of that.

    wow awesome! about that bee thing, i definitely think a system like that should be applied to humans! and primates don't count because they're pretty close to humans on the intelligence scale. but with the hyena thing, those other hyenas were acting in a way that is good for their survival, if they allowed the leader to remain leader they would've suffered, similar thing with the bees, if they let the bee in he could've been harmful to the other bees. more good decision making in the animal kingdom. but the chimp serial killers was just weird.
    I knew the arguement of "the group made the right decision" would be braught up, but my point is that the individual animals; the tyrannical hyena and macaques, the drunken bees, all made bad decisions. But yeah, 99.99% of the time, animals don't make obviously bad decisions for their survival . . . more commonly, their bad decisions are things like going the wrong direction in search of food or making a mistake when being chased by a predator. I saw a video one time of an gazelle or impala (not sure which) trying to leap over sleeping lions. I don't know if the gazelle was trying to be a daredevil or what (some animals have been known to charge within striking range of their predators for seemingly no other reason then to be daring) but, with awesome reflexes, the lion just leapt up and snatched the gazelle right out of the air. Bad move for the gazelle. Anyway, depending on what you count as a bad decision (as opposed to an innocently uninformed decision), animals can make a surprising number of bad choices.

    There are a few other examples I thought of putting in that post but didn't because it was arguable whether it's bad. There are donkeys and elephants who'll break into human dwellings and consume alcahol then go on drunken rampages. Elephants and dogs have killed their trainers/owners and gone on "rampages", often getting themselves killed. It's questionable whether they count because the drunken animals aren't nessacarily hurting themselves socially, and the rampaging/owner killing animals were often treated with cruelty and were just killing their oppressors and trying to escape.

    We humans don't have a monopoly on bad choices, we just control the market.

    Edited on 01/07/2008 1:26pm
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  • Avatar of tomtitan

    tomtitan

    [494]Jan 7, 2008
    • member since: 03/01/07
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 10,891
    Teranef wrote:
    tomtitan wrote:
    Teranef wrote:

    tomtitan wrote:
    they just do what's best for their survival,(e.g. zuko in XRoD),
    No, just the ones that live.

    Plenty of animals have been recorded doing things bad for their survival

    Tyranny: Leaders of social groups have abused and cruelly treated their group members to the point of being overthrown, beaten, demoted to the lowest rank, or outright banished. In one instance, a leader of a troop of macaques abused the young of the troop and abused his mates. The researchers following the troop found the troop leader one day beaten and bloody. It was speculated that the females could not take his abuse anymore and attacked him. The troop leader was reduced to low-man and a new troop leader was selected; the friend of the leader that came before the abusive one. I saw a documentary that showed the leader of a hyena clan who would starve her packmates, keeping most of the food for herself. One day, her pack mates all attacked her and she was mutilated, tail bitten off etc. She was eventually banished from the clan and its safe to assume she died.

    Intoxication: Humans are not alone in the act of drug use. Some individual bees will suck sap which contains some alcahol from certain trees and intoxicate themselves. When they return to the hive, they will not be allowed back in. Bees who repeatedly return to the hive intoxicated . . . will have their legs bitten off.

    Purposeful self-destruction: In captivity, animals have been known to suffer from a mental condition known as zoochosis in which they may engage in varous self destructive behaviors, ripping their fur out, biting themselves, picking at their flesh until they have open sores, one dolphin in an acquarium was even documented ramming itself into the cement wall in an apparent attempt to commit suicide.

    War: Fighting is a way of life (and death) for chimpanzees. Male chimps run in gangs. Within the gang, chimps co-operate but if a chimp from another gang comes into their territory, there will be trouble. Chimps go on border patrol; walking the perimeter of their territory to make sure no chimps are hunting on their land. Trespassers will be killed. Chimp gangs don't just chase rivals away. They kill them. This is war. Sometimes chimps get into full-fledged wars that last for years. Some scientists think a third of all male chimps are killed by other chimps.

    And to top it off:

    There's even a single, unique case of a duo of chimpanzee serial killers:

    In August of 1975, Gilka a chimpanzee mother was sitting with her infant when suddenly Passion, another mother appeared and chased her. Gilka ran screaming but Passion who was bigger and stronger caught up, attacked, seized, and killed the baby. She then proceeded to eat the flesh of the infant and share the gruesome remains with her adolescent daughter, Pom and her infant son, Prof. This was the first observed instance of cannibalistic behavior shown by Passion and Pom. About a year after this incident, Gilka gave birth to another infant and this time it was Pom who seized the baby, but Passion and Prof again shared the flesh. There is no explanation why Passion and Pom behaved as they did. Passion was always an asocial female, and had been a very harsh mother to her own first infant, Pom. It was only as Pom grew older that the very close bond developed between mother and daughter, and it was only because the two acted with such perfect co-operation that they were able to overcome some of the other females of their community. During the years of their rampaging, a total of ten infants died or disappeared and every instance point to Passion and Pom. They would never try to attack a female when there were any males around. Instead they would wait for the mother to be alone with her infant and gang up on her. In three years from 1974 to 1976 only a single infant in the Kasakela community had lived for more than one month. Finally, when Passion gave birth again to a third child, and Pom also gave birth, the extraordinary cannibalistic infant killing came to an end.

    Animals are more then capable of choosing paths that are bad for their survival . . . they just don't do it that often, natural selection makes sure of that.

    wow awesome! about that bee thing, i definitely think a system like that should be applied to humans! and primates don't count because they're pretty close to humans on the intelligence scale. but with the hyena thing, those other hyenas were acting in a way that is good for their survival, if they allowed the leader to remain leader they would've suffered, similar thing with the bees, if they let the bee in he could've been harmful to the other bees. more good decision making in the animal kingdom. but the chimp serial killers was just weird.
    I knew the arguement of "the group made the right decision" would be braught up, but my point is that the individual animals; the tyrannical hyena and macaques, the drunken bees, all made bad decisions. But yeah, 99.99% of the time, animals don't make obviously bad decisions for their survival . . . more commonly, their bad decisions are things like going the wrong direction in search of food or making a mistake when being chased by a predator. I saw a video one time of an gazelle or impala (not sure which) trying to leap over sleeping lions. I don't know if the gazelle was trying to be a daredevil or what (some animals have been known to charge within striking range of their predators for seemingly no other reason then to be daring) but, with awesome reflexes, the lion just leapt up and snatched the gazelle right out of the air. Bad move for the gazelle. Anyway, depending on what you count as a bad decision (as opposed to an innocently uninformed decision), animals can make a surprising number of bad choices.

    There are a few other examples I thought of putting in that post but didn't because it was arguable whether it's bad. There are donkeys and elephants who'll break into human dwellings and consume alcahol then go on drunken rampages. Elephants and dogs have killed their trainers/owners and gone on "rampages", often getting themselves killed. It's questionable whether they count because the drunken animals aren't nessacarily hurting themselves socially, and the rampaging/owner killing animals were often treated with cruelty and were just killing their oppressors and trying to escape.

    We humans don't have a monopoly on bad choices, we just control the market.


    maybe those animals make bad decisions due to mental illness etc?
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  • Avatar of ddendong116

    ddendong116

    [495]Jan 7, 2008
    • member since: 01/07/07
    • level: 12
    • rank: Evil Bert
    • posts: 1,546

    Well, I'm glad someone found a use for this thread. I suppose you can use it for your philosophical thoughts.

    btw, I'm having doubts whether the Disciples will continue. The Owls seem to have caught on (slightly) but judging from the number of votes in the last election, public awareness is next to nothing. Should the Disciples continue? Or should we just leave it at the Owls?

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  • Avatar of Kilotzack

    Kilotzack

    [496]Jan 7, 2008
    • member since: 11/09/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 910
    I think we should continue wih the Disciples, but maybe we should let people know what were doing better.
    I mean, a Disciple is the highest 'rank' of OWL's.. and if there are so many OWL's, then I think lot's of them would like to become an owl, but why would they vote if they are not nominated theirselves..
    And, most people don't really know the posters of the forum.. I mean, sure it takes time to get known among the forum, but I mean, HumbleNewb and Pooldude have achieved that, and they both got to be a Disciple. Not that I disagree with that, because I think they are more than worthy of the title, but I'm just saying that this shouldn't become a popularity contest.
    I think what this whole thing needs is more people to know of it and be excited about it.. Posters that are nominated, can discuss things in this thread along with anyone else of course.. And by doing so, they will be known better and maybe people will be more excited to become a Disciple..
    But it's not like it's supposed to be somekind of president election.. I mean, we can't promise people lower taxes or anything xD
    Maybe that's what makes it hard to keep people interested.. What do they have to gain if they vote for someone to be a Disciple? I don't know.. Maybe we should just give up on them and just keep it at the OWL's.. Maybe just for now, untill maybe some time people will gain interest in the Disciples once again..
    I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm just writing ym thoughts about it here lol
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  • Avatar of ddendong116

    ddendong116

    [497]Jan 7, 2008
    • member since: 01/07/07
    • level: 12
    • rank: Evil Bert
    • posts: 1,546
    Thanks, Lucio. I'll have to think about what you've said. In the meantime, keep being cool and nice and all that... ya.
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  • Avatar of tomtitan

    tomtitan

    [498]Jan 8, 2008
    • member since: 03/01/07
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 10,891
    ddendong116 wrote:
    Thanks, Lucio. I'll have to think about what you've said. In the meantime, keep being cool and nice and all that... ya.

    you tried to make the forum a better place for us all, so anything you decide to do with the discples is ok to me.
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  • Avatar of ddendong116

    ddendong116

    [499]Jan 8, 2008
    • member since: 01/07/07
    • level: 12
    • rank: Evil Bert
    • posts: 1,546
    tomtitan wrote:
    ddendong116 wrote:
    Thanks, Lucio. I'll have to think about what you've said. In the meantime, keep being cool and nice and all that... ya.

    you tried to make the forum a better place for us all, so anything you decide to do with the discples is ok to me.
    Thanks, Tomitan, that means a lot.
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  • Avatar of LiveInThaskyE

    LiveInThaskyE

    [500]Jan 10, 2008
    • member since: 03/04/07
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 799

    Wow, I haven't been on this site in awhile, most of you I don't even recognize at all, but I just wanted to say that this is a cool idea.

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